Tyler K. Gordon: 0:01

You want to give us an introduction? Do you want to get started? Are you ready for?

Sam Binns: 0:04

this. I'm ready. All right, I'm ready. Welcome to the From Grace to Grace podcast. My name is Sam, with me is Tyler Gordon and we are, we always say, excited, but I'm going to say, I'm going to say we are ecstatic today about this episode. It's the atonement. And this is going to be the most important episode of this season because it's Jesus Christ, it's the very center of everything we do. So I'm excited. No, not excited Ecstatic.

Tyler K. Gordon: 0:42

We do say excited a lot, but that's because it's true. I was listening, we just released. So today this is kind of peek behind the curtains. Today we just released our first guest episode with Quentin and I was listening through it last night just before it went live, and I said something that I was like you know what, I don't know that I agree with that. And during the episode I said the foundation of our religion was basically Joseph Smith asking a question and getting the answer from God, the Father, and that's true for the Restoration. That's the foundation of the Restoration. But the foundation of our religion is the Atonement. So I kind of redact my statement of the foundation and so you should go listen to that episode so that you can also be on board with what I'm saying. But the foundation and so you should go listen to that episode so that you can also be on board with what I'm saying but the foundation of our religion is the atonement itself. And so we're avoiding the word excited today, but I am enthusiastic. It's all just E words.

Sam Binns: 1:37

So I want to start with, before we talk about the event itself, I wanted to talk about Jesus Christ's name. So we're pulling from both the Hebrew and the Greek meanings of Messiah, of Savior, and just the name Jesus and the word Christ and the way I like to pull it together. When we look at Jesus's name, in Hebrew it's Savior, or the Lord is my salvation, and then as well in Greek you have it be Savior and then the Anointed.

Tyler K. Gordon: 2:17

One. It's super interesting because Jesus Christ Christ is a title. There are so many titles for Jesus Christ. There's anointed one, there's savior, there's healer, there's redeemer. You have so many titles for Jesus Christ and each one has a unique aspect of his Christ-like abilities, of his godliness. Healer is one of my favorites and I know Luke. In the gospel of Luke he uses that term a lot of healer. He is this grand healer and is able to heal us in physical ways, but also, maybe more importantly, in spiritual ways.

Sam Binns: 2:53

And I like to think about it as well, with if you were to pull the meaning of Messiah and put that instead of Christ, at the end it turns into Savior, deliverer, and I just like to think about if he was back then walking around. He would be walking around with the name Savior, and that was all that he needed to be identified as, and so I just like to think about the name at the very beginning of this.

Tyler K. Gordon: 3:24

The other amazing thing with Jesus Christ is you get a lot of types of Jesus throughout the scriptures and those names have meaning to them, like Joshua in the Old Testament.

Sam Binns: 3:35

Well, that's where Christ's name comes from Exactly.

Tyler K. Gordon: 3:39

And so you can connect people to types of the Savior, and when you dig into their names or the meaning of their names, you can see more of who he is. Through that, I love that as well.

Sam Binns: 3:56

And I guess not so much where his name comes from, but it's the same name technically, right right. Joshua Jesus. Yeah, it's the same name technically, right right.

Tyler K. Gordon: 4:04

Joshua Jesus. Yeah, it's also interesting. You get this because of the New Testament, because of the way that the writers of the New Testament were trying to basically bridge this gap between the Jewish faith and the Gentiles basically, and the Gentiles basically, and so you get this intermixing of Hebrew names, of Greek names, and so you get this multifaceted idea of who the Savior is through these different translations of his name. Any other thoughts on his name?

Sam Binns: 4:39

Well, I think about when the angel tells Mary to name him Jesus, because he will save his people. It's following a similar story that you see with other places in the Old Testament, where someone is named something because of what they're going to do. And it's important to me to think about that, because those people could easily have chosen not to follow their path or to fall from their path and choose a different route, but Jesus didn't.

Tyler K. Gordon: 5:14

The other thing that I think about is what a perfect name, both in the translation sense but also just who he is the translation sense, but also just who he is. I think this episode, as we kind of start to dive into the atonement I think it's going to be as Sam said, I'm excited to talk about it. As I have said, I think it's the foundation of our religion, but I also feel like it's one of those topics that it's rather somber. It's joyful in the sense that it happened and it gives us hope for the future, but also the act itself is very just heavy. So I'm excited to talk about it.

Tyler K. Gordon: 5:58

But as we kind of go into this and kind of just as a PSA, as a request I know that there are some people out there who might be listening to this, who might not be of our faith or of our religion, but I simply request that, as we kind of discuss this and as we discuss this in the comments and further, that we take an understanding that I hold this very near and dear to my heart as a religious concept and Sam holds this very near and dear to my heart as a religious concept and Sam holds this very near and dear to his heart as a religious concept, and there's a whole group of people out there who hold this as a very somber and heartfelt and sometimes difficult concept to talk about, and so I just would hope that we would have that respect through our conversation, you and me, sam, and then through the conversations that we continue to have about this in the comments.

Tyler K. Gordon: 6:48

So just kind of approaching this from this understanding. I understand that you might not agree with us on specific aspects of the atonement, or why it was performed, or even if it was performed, but I would just request that we discuss it in a light that understands that we hold this very sacredly. So take us away when are we going?

Sam Binns: 7:11

So to begin, I want to preface this with something that will set up how we see the atonement. So I've written it down here I've got. We believe Jesus was, is and will eternally be deity and that he free-willingly chose to atone for all mankind. So, first and foremost, we don't believe that Jesus was a created being. We don't believe that he came out of nothing or that he had a beginning. He is eternal, just like the rest of us, and we believe that he was eternally the same type of being as God is already. And when the plan was presented, as we discussed in premortal life, he chose to fulfill that role when the time came because with the plan including a fall and mistakes and sin and suffering and sickness, there also needed to be an atonement and a restitution for all of those problems and mistakes.

Tyler K. Gordon: 8:19

And I think the important thing to point out here was the atonement, was the plan? From the beginning it was we need an atonement because there will be a fall right, not necessarily there will be a fall. So I guess we're going to need an atonement. The idea was no, we need an atonement because there necessarily needs to be a fall. And so, from the foundation of the world, jesus Christ, was this one who was going to atone for our fallen nature.

Sam Binns: 8:48

And I think it's kind of sad as well to think about how we don't see too much in the Old Testament that talks about how this is the plan from the very beginning.

Sam Binns: 9:02

We can talk about why that would be or scripture things later on, but that's why I get so grateful when I open up the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants, because we see snippets of stories from way back before Moses that are talking about Jesus Christ and are talking about the doctrine of Christ, and I think that is something that's faith-building, at least to see that this has been talked about from the very beginning.

Sam Binns: 9:34

So, second off, we believe that the Old Testament God, whose name is commonly translated as Jehovah or Yahweh, is the Savior Jesus Christ before he was born. We get this from partially in the Bible, from John 8, where you have Jesus quoted as saying Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am, and we tie that to the Old Testament with I believe it's Exodus 3, where Moses is talking to the I am in the burning bush. 3, where Moses is talking to the I Am in the burning bush. And then we also get added help and understanding for that through the rest of the standard works. The Book of Mormon is explicit with it.

Tyler K. Gordon: 10:15

It's so powerful. I love this verse and I love that you brought it up. It's just such a powerful verse to me. When we quoted it just now, I just felt it in my being. Verily verily, I say unto you before Abraham was, I am, and just that title I am is also such a powerful title and it just just like knowing that he is and he can be whatever I need him to be. I am just invites, am just invites. I am a healer, right, I am your friend, your friend. I am a deliverer, I am. And then fill in whatever the blank may need to be at that time, whatever you may need at that time.

Sam Binns: 10:55

Take your pick of the thousands of titles.

Tyler K. Gordon: 10:58

Yeah, I just love that so much. Be still and know that I am. So I just I love that verse John 8, 58, if you're looking for a good verse to read for the day and then getting into some of the aspects of the atonement.

Sam Binns: 11:17

I've written out a couple of portions of this just because I wanted to get the words down how they came to my head when I was preparing for this, and so I'll be reading a couple things then discussing them. So this one is we believe Jesus atoned for all sin. The atonement is complete and covers everything and everyone who chooses to repent meaning they cast aside sin and do good instead, and they fill their life with the things Jesus wants them to do they become dedicated to becoming like him and as well, we don't believe in a Jesus of the gaps. He's working with us completely the entire way through any process of healing, repentance, anything.

Tyler K. Gordon: 11:59

I oftentimes think people believe that Christ just atones for the things that they're not good enough. The Jesus of the gap, and the way that I like to describe it is. People oftentimes think like, okay, there's a gap between me and God, there's a cavern between me and God and I need to have a rope to swing across it. That rope is made up of the commandments that I'm able to keep and, yeah, maybe if I have one commandment or two commandments that I can't keep, those are two strands in the rope, but that's okay, I could still swing across. I have a pretty good rope, but that's not the case. The case is it's a chain link that we have to hold on to. It's all of the commandments, and even if one of those chain links is broken, you're not swinging across on that, you're falling.

Tyler K. Gordon: 12:44

The only person who kept all of the commandments and even if one of those chain links is broken, you're not swinging across. On that, you're falling. The only person who kept all of the commandments perfectly was Jesus Christ, and he's the only one with a perfect chain link that would hold you to swing across, and so he atoned for all of those chain links that we end up breaking, and I love that. So help me understand something real quick, sam. And I love that. So help me understand something real quick, sam. The atonement oftentimes in Latter-day Saint theology we're talking about a Thursday night. Does that extend to the cross in Calvary?

Sam Binns: 13:14

Yes, so it's a two-part thing, it's a continuous thing.

Tyler K. Gordon: 13:19

Okay, so the atonement would involve not only the event that happened in Gethsemane but also the cross on Calvary, because he had to atone not only for spiritual death, which would have been in the Garden of Gethsemane, but also, would it make sense to say, atone for physical death as well? Overcome physical death, I suppose would be more appropriate.

Tyler K. Gordon: 13:42

In my understanding, he's atoning for spiritual death from the garden all the way to when he says it is finished and then I think physical death, like the atonement for physical death, as you're putting, it, starts there and then ends on Resurrection Sunday when he walks out of the tomb. If I were to say atonement, we would be speaking from the garden all the way to the tomb.

Sam Binns: 14:08

All the way to the tomb. Yes, when he walks out. Your understanding of it, Okay.

Tyler K. Gordon: 14:11

All right, cool. Yeah, no, I'm down for that. I know that some people, when they say atonement, they're talking about the garden, and I think that's true. That's part of the atonement, but I think more fully, the atonement encompasses much more than that, all the way to the tomb and, to be honest, it encompasses somewhat of what we're going through now.

Sam Binns: 14:32

So I think people fixate on the Garden of Gethsemane simply because that's an easy spot to focus on for our understandings and just the paintings we have and things like that. But I think this is a great segue to what I was going to share. Next is that we preach the same gospel as found in Christianity in the beginning of 1 Corinthians 15. And so what that means is Christ's atonement is the definition of what the gospel is. So when people this is what kind of grinds at me all the time as I'm at church is I'm sitting there and people are saying let's learn the gospel, teach the gospel. And they're talking in a general sense for the entirety of the theology, the church, everything. And I sit there and I get a little mad sometimes because anybody who is outside of the church is going to be sitting there, very confused, because they're going to start thinking what are they teaching? Because that seems like they're including a lot more than what is found in 1 Corinthians 15.

Tyler K. Gordon: 15:43

Well, and I would say there's a difference between a capital G Gospel of Jesus Christ and a lowercase g Gospel of Jesus Christ. I'd say the capital G Gospel of Jesus Christ is more pointing towards what you would be thinking of, specifically the atonement, faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost might be encompassed in those. Does that make sense? Is anything that I'm saying make sense?

Sam Binns: 16:05

Yeah, well, so here's the thing, though anybody who's speaking isn't going to be like you don't read a capital G or a lowercase g when somebody's speaking to you. Sure.

Tyler K. Gordon: 16:14

It's hard to detect what they're talking about.

Sam Binns: 16:17

So for me, I just I like to divvy it up, and when I talk about the atonement, I can use the word gospel. When I'm talking about the doctrine of Christ, I use the doctrine of Christ. When I'm talking about the theology of the church as a whole, that's what I use. Is that phrase so when?

Tyler K. Gordon: 16:31

you say theology, or when you say sorry, you said gospel of Jesus Christ. When you're talking about the atonement, what was the second thing that you said?

Sam Binns: 16:39

Doctrine of Christ for, specifically, faith in Jesus Christ, repentance through the atonement of Christ. Can I push against you?

Tyler K. Gordon: 16:46

here, Because in the temple they say, the gospel of Jesus Christ is faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end.

Sam Binns: 16:54

Personally, I feel like that's just a traditional thing. I feel like that's somebody else again using gospel as a general term Sure. So personally, I feel like that's not as clear as it could be.

Tyler K. Gordon: 17:05

Okay, okay, I don't know. I think for me personally, I'm like no, that can be the gospel of Jesus Christ, right, because all of that revolves around the atonement. It circumscribes the atonement of all of those steps. And maybe you're right, but I think that the gospel of Jesus Christ right, atonement is a specific word for the act that Christ did, and then the gospel of Jesus Christ is a slightly bigger circle that encompasses the atonement but also encompasses faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end. That's just my thoughts on the term gospel of Jesus Christ, but I see where you're getting at with. Maybe we should be a little bit more careful with the words that we use.

Sam Binns: 17:48

Because my aim is always trying to find ways to make it easier for people who are coming from a Christian outlook on the words and make it easier for them to understand what we're talking about, because we have so many unique words that we use.

Tyler K. Gordon: 18:04

Or even repurposing of words that we end up using right. Completely opposite sometimes. Yeah, it's just very different, yeah.

Sam Binns: 18:12

So Christ's atonement is the gospel and the doctrine of Christ, as we've mentioned here a minute ago, is the way to make full use of the atonement.

Tyler K. Gordon: 18:22

But I think it's important to remember. As we've said, some people, whether right or wrong, will interchange those words.

Sam Binns: 18:30

It's important to note that we can use both however we want, but personally I feel like it's a better way of just dividing what we're talking about and, to some, basically everything we've just set up. Joseph Smith has a wonderful quote. He says the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ, that he died, was buried and rose again the third day and ascended into heaven. And all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. The people who say we preach a different gospel. It's the same gospel. It's the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. It's the atonement of Christ. It's those last few days of his life where he is taking sin and death and throwing them in the trash sin and death and throwing them in the trash.

Tyler K. Gordon: 19:28

Because, ultimately, the things he taught were how for us to live in such a way that we would be able to utilize his atonement right Everything else, his teachings right. His mission on earth was to come and atone for the sins of the world, and his teachings lead us to that. Everything that we have in the restored gospel leads us to that. Everything that we have from the Old Testament points to Jesus Christ, but it points to his atonement and his ability to save us.

Sam Binns: 19:59

We're pulling up a series of scriptures here that I put into the episode because there's a couple things I wanted to talk about with them. So it's 2 Nephi 9, 3 Nephi 27, doctrine and Covenants 76, and Ether 12. And they're all ones that I've put under a tab on my Gospel Library app to pull up when I search for the definition of the atonement. And I think for 9, it's not so much an explanation of what is the atonement death, burial and resurrection it's more of a doctrinal explanation of what is it. It's more of a doctrinal explanation of what is it and what's the purpose of it.

Sam Binns: 20:45

2 Nephi 9 goes into really nitty-gritty detail on the atonement and the effects and the purpose of the atonement. So verse 6 is probably a good way to sum up. The chapter is For as death hath passed upon all men, to fulfill the merciful plan of the great creator, there must needs be a power of resurrection, and the resurrection must needs come unto man by reason of the fall, and the fall came by reason of transgression. And because man became fallen, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. Nephi talks about the effects of the atonement and then he talks about death and the spiritual death. And so he says and this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead, which spiritual death is hell, wherefore death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to another, and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.

Sam Binns: 21:46

So I like that because it gives you the two main portions of what the atonement accomplishes with spiritual death and physical death, and tells you Christ is going to bring your body back from the grave and he's going to bring your spirit from hell and he's going to bring you from that spiritual death. So that's 2 Nephi 9. 3 Nephi 27 is just a personal explanation by Christ. In verse 13 down to 15, is just where he explains what he's accomplished and he says that he was sent by the Father to be lifted up upon the cross and after that he'd been lifted on the cross, he would draw all men to him and so that, as he's been lifted up by the Father, everyone else would be lifted up by him to be judged of their works, whether they be good or evil, and it's a great poetic way of explaining how he's going to both raise them from the dead and raise them from that spiritual death.

Tyler K. Gordon: 22:50

Well, and basically raise us from having to go onto the cross. He took our place, and so I love that idea of he raises us up. He was raised up on the cross so that we didn't have to, but he did that so that we could be raised up to be with him, so yeah, great verses 76.

Sam Binns: 23:14

verse 40 to 43 is just another spot where the Doctrine and Covenants will give you a definition of the atonement. So he came to the world to be crucified, to bear the sins of the world, to sanctify the world and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness that all through him might be saved, whom the Father had put into his power and made by him. So that's just another spot that I think is some nice verses. I don't have too much to explain there.

Sam Binns: 23:46

Yeah, I think it goes over kind of the same things that were talked about in 3 Nephi, which is nice, and then this one, ether 12, it's verse 11. There we are, the phrase in there that in the gift of his son hath God prepared. A more excellent way is I think it's the understatement of the Book of Mormon. I like the succinct way it puts it. But the excellent way is the atonement, and I just like the little quick definition there too, because before that, of course it's talking about the law of Moses and the atonement that is made in the law of Moses' animal sacrifices. But then this one explains but the Son of God comes and makes a better way.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:37

Is there anything specific that you were wanting to? Let's talk generally about all four of these different scripture sections that we talked about. I don't know Do you have a favorite out of these four that we talked about. That stands out to you.

Sam Binns: 24:52

I think, as I learn more about it, 3 Nephi 27 is probably going to become my favorite, but as of right now, 2 Nephi 9 is, of course, more of my favorite of all of these, just because there's so much explanation of why and how atonement works. Again, I'm leading us through a series of things that I've written down. This one says the atonement of Christ is meant not only to redeem from sin, but to perfect or lift or exalt all of us up to being joiners with Christ. So this is a part I think that will also be slightly different for people from the Christian worldview is that we believe that the atonement not only redeems us from sin but also brings us to a place of exaltation next to Christ.

Tyler K. Gordon: 25:50

What is that scripture?

Sam Binns: 25:52

It's from the New Testament.

Tyler K. Gordon: 25:53

Yeah, it's in Corinthians, I think. Nope, romans. Romans 8.17. I just wanted to bring that up because I feel like that's I mean kind of. I just wanted to bring that up because I feel like that's, I mean kind of we're pulling this obviously from Revelation and stuff that Joseph Smith has said and newer prophets have said, but also we kind of get this idea of joint heirs with Christ. It's talked about in the Bible as well. Romans.

Sam Binns: 26:19

I just use the phrase as we interpret it from Romans Sure.

Tyler K. Gordon: 26:25

Yep, and Romans did it say 8-7? Nope, 8-17. So in Romans, 8-17, yeah, it says and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if it so be, we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together, and I think that perfectly sums up basically what you're talking about here.

Sam Binns: 26:50

You're pulling that from this verse we become joint heirs with Christ, and I would just say the difference for us is that it's justification than sanctification. Essentially is what's happening we're being justified and made right, at least, and just at even, and then afterward we are perfected and sanctified and we are lifted up even higher, beyond, just beyond, innocence. We go instead from a neutral between bad and good and go to the far extreme of the good side, I guess.

Tyler K. Gordon: 27:30

I think it's also important to recognize that he exalts us or sanctifies us and justifies us even more than we could be on our own. That's the point that we're getting at here is like infinitely more he's able to sanctify us.

Sam Binns: 27:48

He's changing our very natures. He's changing the aspects of who we are. That's part of the purpose of this life, is our spirits and of course our bodies are a part of this, but who we are is being molded and shaped and changed as we're here.

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:05

I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm very much a person who's like, oh, I can do everything on my own and I'm just going to just work really hard and I'll get there. And that's not true with the atonement or with Jesus Christ. Right, I like to think about this in a mathematical sense. Christ is the infinite. He is equal to infinity. And sometimes I think like, oh, on a good day, maybe I do 10 good things to help someone else, right, and Christ has done infinitely many good things. So my 10 good things plus Christ's infinitely many good things still equals infinity. It doesn't change anything. Infinitely many good things still equals infinity. It doesn't change anything.

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:45

But the beautiful thing comes in.

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:45

When you do, let's say, I have a really bad day, I do negative five good things, whatever that might mean.

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:51

Negative five if I include Christ in that, plus infinity, is still infinity in mathematics. So I love this idea that some days, yeah, I'm going to have a net positive of things that I do well and yeah, I'm going to have a net positive of like things that I do well, and some days I'm going to have a net negative of things that I do poorly, and that's just how it is. But if I include Christ in those bad days and on those good days, I can still be with him in the infinite and I just, I love that concept and thank you, mathematics, for existing to be able to teach me that, even though sometimes mathematics can be the bane of my existence. So would you say, let me ask you this would you say all sin is paid for now because of the atonement? I would say so, yes, but some people choose to not accept that payment and then to suffer for it on their own even though it's already been paid.

Tyler K. Gordon: 29:44

So Christ is offering us the payment to pay our debtor.

Sam Binns: 29:49

Yeah, okay, which is justice.

Tyler K. Gordon: 29:51

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So let me ask you this as well. In this bullet point God says and this is in D&C, I should pull up the verse the suffering is eternal, and suffering is God's, or it's not suffering, it's punishment. It's what is it? D and c 19. Uh, why didn't you just tell me I could have just gone there.

Sam Binns: 30:17

Let's talk about this verse it's a set of verses eternal damnation, eternal torment, endless torment endless torment is written that there is no end to torment.

Tyler K. Gordon: 30:25

But this is written.

Sam Binns: 30:26

Okay, so. So, nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. It's the description, because he says, I believe later on, endless is my name, wherefore eternal punishment is God's punishment. Endless punishment is God's punishment.

Tyler K. Gordon: 30:46

Interesting, so it's more. Is it so? Help me understand, because I'm not understanding right now. Is it using eternal and endless as titles, as in God is eternal and God is endless and it's God's punishment? Okay, that makes sense to me.

Sam Binns: 31:05

Yeah, so suffering for sins, at least in the sense of our own, like if we choose not to take his atonement and make use of it, then we suffer for our sins. But it does end and that's over before final judgment. Begins, or begins, finishes, I guess, sure.

Tyler K. Gordon: 31:25

So the other thing Take your pick.

Tyler K. Gordon: 31:27

I think the other thing to recognize is that payment, that suffering, that godly guilt that you feel. You can accept Christ's atonement now as payment. Sometimes I go in and I'm like, okay, yeah, the atonement will pay for things later, right in the next life, and that's not true. That's not true because I can go, I can repent, and if I go through the proper means of repentance and going to God and confessing my sins and doing all the things necessary, then I can accept Christ's atonement today. It doesn't have to be, hey, yeah, maybe I'll get to that in the next life. I can accept that now.

Sam Binns: 32:06

Yeah, the peace and the freedom can be yours now. I think further on is something this part I love for D&C 19. It was pointed out to me that this is the only firsthand account we have of the atonement. Out to me that this is the only firsthand account we have of the atonement and it's in D&C 19, and it's further on it. So I guess we'll start in verse 17.

Sam Binns: 32:37

This is supposed to be Jesus Christ speaking and to bleed every pore and to suffer both body and spirit and would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink. Nevertheless, glory be to the Father. And I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men, wherefore I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power, and that you confess your sins lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken of, which in a small, small bit. When you're sitting in agony for your own personal sins and you have say you've done something wrong and you feel the guilt and the godly sorrow regarding that, he's telling you you're feeling the smallest inkling of it and you know it sucks a ton. And he's saying multiply that by a bajillion and you'll know maybe even a fraction of what I've suffered.

Tyler K. Gordon: 33:40

So I know that there's a lot of questions about what did Christ go through or how did he and I love that you brought this up, because we are told he literally bled from every pore.

Sam Binns: 33:56

That's Mosiah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 33:57

Well, yes, it's in Mosiah, but here we get it as well, right, we get this like. But here we get it as well, right, like we get this, like hey, this is, he bled from every pore, and so it just gives me some sort of I don't know that act, that he would even consider doing that for me. You know, we've been talking about the atonement in like a general sense and we're going to get more into this later on but just even the fact that he would go through that and bleed from every pore for me because the atonement is a personal thing it's a sobering thing to think about.

Sam Binns: 34:34

This part, I think, was a personal add to the notes I love that you added this.

Sam Binns: 34:44

This was one that came to my mind because this is something I've recently learned fully, and so this was something that was fresh on my mind. Holding grudges against ourselves or holding hatred, anger, shame, fear and loathing for ourselves will keep us stuck in sin, not release us. We need to remove that before sin will come off much easier. I think in the cases of very serious sins and things that are not often talked about publicly, the shame and the fear and the loathing for yourself can be similar as talked about in those verses in D&C 19,. That suffering that you're tasting there is from the shame and the fear and the loathing it's being. You're multiplying it, I guess, on yourself. You're mirroring whatever pain is coming in from the sin and you're pushing it right back onto yourself with shame and fear and hatred for yourself.

Tyler K. Gordon: 35:52

Well, and I think it's important to recognize that the point of this life is not so that we understand the pain, or it's so that we have joy, and I think it's really easy for us to be really down on ourselves. Whereas I don't know if we could see ourselves the way that God sees each of us, I think that one we would probably try to stay away from sin a lot easier. We would still fall into the trap, but I also think that we would more fully come to repentance. He doesn't ask for part of our heart, the part that is clean and we're like okay, this is the one that's presentable. He wants our whole heart, and that includes the part where we're blaming ourselves, where we're causing this shame and fear and loathing for ourselves. He asks for that part of our heart and asks us to sacrifice it, to let it go, because he's already paid for that. He's already paid for that and there is a place for godly sorrow. There is a place for that because you don't want to do it again.

Sam Binns: 36:59

But godly sorrow is not synonymous with any of those words that we've listed. Yes, agreed, it's something else.

Tyler K. Gordon: 37:05

Yeah something completely different. But I think, because emotions are so connected together, I think it's easy for us to be like well, I'm feeling sorrow for this sin, so I should be feeling angry with myself, I should be feeling upset with myself that I would do something like this, right, and it's like no, you're taking it too far, you're going too far with it.

Sam Binns: 37:27

And I love what you said here I'll insert this it's a difference between guilt and shame.

Tyler K. Gordon: 37:33

Yes, I love what you said here. It will keep us stuck in sin, not release us, because we end up obsessing about oh, am I thinking right, am I doing right, am I feeling right? And it'll just keep us in this feedback loop of thinking about this sin and, ultimately, what you think about you end up doing. So I love what you said there.

Sam Binns: 37:57

The freedom that comes from releasing yourself from a grudge against yourself is there's nothing that can compare to it, and when you experience it, you realize completely that the atonement of Christ and Christ himself is there, and the peace and the joy you have, it's indescribable. You have it's indescribable.

Tyler K. Gordon: 38:21

Well, and I think it's important, as we've been talking about, his grace is not cheap. It's not a cheap grace, but he also wants you to understand that it's there, it's there and it's free. If that makes sense, he can heal you for free. It's not a cheap thing, but he will do it freely, which is there's this contrary there right Between, like you have to work for it, but also it's a free thing that you can have.

Sam Binns: 38:53

The way to explain that is to say it's not a quid pro quo when you're repenting or following the commandments as part of your repentance. It's not a quid pro quo for what Christ is giving you in return. So I think that's part of the issue with when people say it's a works-based salvation in our church, the problem is they're not realizing it's not a quid pro quo. We're not doing this for the salvific effect. We're doing it as what he's asked us to do, as the receipt of his grace.

Tyler K. Gordon: 39:26

It's because we love him that we do these things, not because we're like, oh, I've got to work for this. Because I love him so much, I'm willing to do whatever it is he asks of me. And so when I feel like, oh, I should go do this thing, it's not because I'm like, okay, well, you paid me in grace this week, so I guess I'm going to go serve this person. No, it's because I love him. So that's my personal take on it.

Sam Binns: 39:51

Another portion to trying to make use of the atonement is focusing on Christ and what he's done and gratitude for that, as well as just the general things of life. Today I'm breathing, today I had food. The general gratitude as well as gratitude for what he's done will be building blocks that allow him to shape you. I think something that I've also realized more recently is, since people always say that comparison is the thief of joy, and I think it's been said somewhere that gratitude is the source of joy, and I think that joy is amplified or just is coming from Jesus Christ as we continue on that path of gratitude, when we have gratitude in our hearts, his influence is going to be so much stronger and we're going to be having a much better connection with Christ when we're grateful, and it will amplify and speed up the process of repentance, of cleansing, of sanctification, justification all of it's going to be sped up far faster than you could possibly imagine for any kind of sin you're trying to remove from your life because you want to be free.

Tyler K. Gordon: 41:16

I love this idea of gratitude for the atonement and also just daily things. You said I'm grateful that today exists and I'm breathing, and I love how, in Mosiah, he talks about God loaning you breath and being grateful for that and using that breath to go and serve others. But I love this idea of God loaning me breath because I don't know if you've ever done this, but if you've held your breath and you're like I'm going to hold my breath because I'm not going to give God back his breath, right, he gave me my breath and it's mine now. I hate to break it to you, but you're not going to hold onto it forever because you will end up passing out and giving it back to him, because he loans you your daily breath. He loans you the things that you have, which I just. I love this idea that even our breath, which we consider ours, is a gift from God.

Sam Binns: 42:08

If you want to learn the doctrines regarding the atonement, I'd say read the Book of Mormon. And if you want to learn more about the actual event itself, go to the Bible, to the New Testament. If you want to see a firsthand account, go to D&C I guess right, d&c 19. And if you want to see the reasons why, go to the Pearl of Great Price.

Tyler K. Gordon: 42:31

Yeah, yeah. I think it's also important to throw in here. All of the standard works point us to the atonement and I think that Sam has done a great job of summing up the. I mean, there are multiple purposes to each of the standard works, but those are good points to recognize that the act itself we get from the New Testament and I love this idea that we have continuing revelation. We are able to learn more about the atonement every day from prophets and apostles, and even modern prophets and apostles in their conference talks teach us more about the atonement every day.

Sam Binns: 43:12

I've also got this here. I thought this was an interesting thought. I had this written down in my study journal that I have for when I read the scriptures and when I'm at church. I've got this written down. It says faith, hope and charity are essential for us to make use of the atonement, since without faith, we can't make use of his grace. Without hope, we won't want to use his grace, and without charity we squander his grace by removing the possibility of sharing it with others, and that selfish nature is going to pull your sins back to you.

Tyler K. Gordon: 43:50

Yeah, it's interesting because the atonement is such a personal thing and I'm talking about this charity aspect. The atonement heals me so that I can turn outwards and help others. So it's really this transient effect of it helps me so that I can turn outwards and help others. So it's really this transient effect of it helps me so that I can then turn around and help everyone else. And I love that about the atonement because it gets me out of myself, which I find that I just close in on myself and I'm like me, me, me, me, me all the time. And then I find out, wow, I am so unhappy right now because all I've been focusing on is me, and there is a time and a space to focus on yourself, and I respect that, but it's not all the time. Let me tell you that, or at least personally, for me it's not all the time as we make use of the atonement.

Sam Binns: 44:37

I think one of the hardest steps is as we slowly change into the people that are like him. We are going to be turning outward towards others, and that's one of the harder portions of becoming like him is to remove our pride and be humble enough to take the role of a servant in others' lives and share with them the knowledge of his atonement and explain to them. I am doing this because of this guy right here pointing to a statue of Christ.

Tyler K. Gordon: 45:16

Well, and I think you've got to think about what did he do? He is the greatest of all, he is God. Think about what did he do. He is the greatest of all, he is God. And what did he do? He specifically went and performed the atonement for us. So I like to think about the greatest of all becoming this servant leader, and I think that's so important for us in the church, in leadership positions, in our daily lives, of understanding that this God that we worship, that we believe in, was willing to become lowly and become almost like us.

Sam Binns: 45:55

Well, he says, he that is greatest among you will be your servant Right Now. I think we've talked a lot in general terms of things. Let's talk about some specific things on misconceptions of the atonement and what his act there in the garden and on the cross and in the tomb means for us, and we haven't talked too much about resurrection. But we'll probably leave that for later on because we're going to talk about that later in the season. True.

Tyler K. Gordon: 46:32

Are you wanting me to go through some of these misconceptions that I have written down?

Sam Binns: 46:35

Yeah, just go through in the same fashion that I've been going through my stuff.

Tyler K. Gordon: 46:39

We'll just kind of go rapid fashion through these misconceptions and we'll talk about them real quick. But I kind of went through Sam's script and then I was thinking about, like what are some common misconceptions that I've had or have about the atonement? And I just kind of want to go through this list. So misconception number one the atonement is only for those who have committed grave sins, and I think we talked about this earlier in the episode. The atonement covers everything. I think Alma 711 encompasses this perfectly. He atoned for the sins of the world, but he also atoned for the pains and afflictions and everything.

Sam Binns: 47:14

Sickness temptation.

Tyler K. Gordon: 47:16

All the things. So it's not just like, oh, this is a really bad sin, so I have to repent. It's oh, I'm going through a really hard thing and I need the atonement now.

Sam Binns: 47:26

Or I just said something mean to someone else. Yeah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 47:32

I thought something mean.

Sam Binns: 47:33

I was sharp with someone.

Tyler K. Gordon: 47:34

Yes, yeah, okay, misconception number two the atonement is a one-time event, not a continuous process. Do you want to get into this?

Sam Binns: 47:44

I'd actually ask you to rephrase it. Rephrase that one.

Tyler K. Gordon: 47:48

How would you rephrase it?

Sam Binns: 47:49

Well, so I would rephrase it Using the atonement is not a one-time event, it's a continuous process.

Tyler K. Gordon: 47:58

Okay, and I agree with that.

Sam Binns: 48:00

Yeah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 48:01

We constantly use the atonement through our lives, through hard things. It's not a one-and-done deal. Because I do multiple bad things, I don't do a one-and-done bad thing, so it's a continuous usage of the atonement. So misconception number three utilizing the atonement means we don't need to make efforts to repent or change.

Sam Binns: 48:26

Now, this is one I've never heard Like I have never considered that somebody might think that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 48:32

What does that mean? I think it comes back to this idea of a works-based gospel Of like. Once you have like. Oh Does that make sense.

Sam Binns: 48:40

Yeah, so just like completely free and utter.

Tyler K. Gordon: 48:44

Yeah, I mean I've accepted Christ's atonement.

Sam Binns: 48:46

I believe in Jesus Christ and his atonement. Therefore I am atoned for yeah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 48:52

Which I think the important thing to recognize here. I love this quote. It says you know you can come to Christ exactly as you are. You don't have to change a single thing. But he's not going to leave you as you are. He's going to change you. If you come to him and you want him in your life, he's going to have you change, and I think that's true. I think you can see that in anybody who accepts Jesus Christ, whether you're part of this church or part of just general Christianity or anyone who's accepted Jesus Christ. Ultimately their nature changes because of who he is.

Sam Binns: 49:26

They're focused on him. Yep and his teachings and what he did. They've turned their leaves towards him and are actually receiving the sunlight at that point.

Tyler K. Gordon: 49:36

Yeah, we talked about this fourth one, which we can reiterate real quick. The atonement is only about forgiveness of sins and not about empowering us to become better individuals, and I think that talks about we talked about almost 7-11, right, he suffered for more than just our sins.

Sam Binns: 49:55

We also believe it's justification and sanctification. We believe he's doing more than just bringing us from forgiveness for the bad things, but also, as it says there, empowering us to become better.

Tyler K. Gordon: 50:08

This next one. Everyone benefits from the atonement in the same way and to the same extent.

Sam Binns: 50:13

Explain that one to me.

Tyler K. Gordon: 50:14

Yeah, I'm just thinking about this. So I think about lots of stories in the Book of Mormon, right, like you have, alma the Younger versus Enos, for example. Their repentance processes were pretty different, and so I would say that they participated in the atonement in different ways. What I'm basically getting at here is the atonement isn't a one-size-fits-all even though it is, it's very unique to what you need and it's a very individual thing. Is basically what I'm getting at here.

Sam Binns: 50:47

Christ, will I like to sometimes think about Christ just sitting down next to me and it's going to be a similar thing for everyone else. He's coming to you and saying I know what you're struggling with. I know how it feels. Here's the way out. And the way out is going to be. In some cases it might be similar to others, but in most I'd say in 99.99% of things it'll be unique to that individual.

Tyler K. Gordon: 51:23

I also think I think this goes along with talking about the covenant path. The covenant path. We all have the same covenants that we want to participate in and be a part of, but I think that everybody's covenant path looks a little different. It takes some different turns. So Christ is at the center and I might be to the right, and my covenant path takes a lot of turns, and Sam's might be to the left and he just goes straight to Jesus Christ because he's a much better person than I am. Hold on, hold on, hold on. But what I'm saying is everybody's path looks different, even though all of them lead back to Jesus.

Sam Binns: 52:00

Christ and I think when people hear that, they might be a little curious to know can the covenant path lead outside of the church itself? Because some people think that when you leave the church you've left the covenant path, which in reality isn't true. They can come back. They've taken a step off the stepping stones of the main path, but there's still that dirt road that many people have taken to get back to the actual stepping stone path of the covenants and the commandments.

Tyler K. Gordon: 52:34

We all step off the covenant path Anytime that we're like you know what, I'm not going to live this covenant anymore. That is us stepping off the covenant path. And, yeah, sometimes people leave the church which we would be like, oh, maybe that's a little further than just stepping off the covenant path. But what I'm saying is any broken covenant is going to be us being like okay, I'm taking a step off here, right, and you'll find that it's not a fun path to walk in my personal humble opinion. But he's living evidence of this yeah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 53:03

So what I'm saying is everybody's path looks different, and that's okay. In fact, that's good, because that means that each of us unique individuals can come to learn what the atonement means for each of us, and I think what we've just discussed is something that we should highlight.

Sam Binns: 53:20

Having the grace in our own hearts and the space to allow others to repent is something that's also critical to their being able to have the hope to take use of the atonement. Because when people take the step to leave the church, many people kind of get quiet about talking with that individual about faith and about the covenant path and things like that. Sometimes I think most of it is going to be we don't want to offend them, we don't want to talk to them about something that they're not comfortable to talk about. But in reality, if they were to understand that the actual doctrine is that they're still technically on the path, that they still have that option for those who do choose to come back, it'd be a lot more empowering if they understood that the general majority of the church should understand it that way. Yeah, I agree.

Sam Binns: 54:21

Having space for them to repent, yeah. And socially allowing them to repent, yeah. In socially allowing them to repent.

Tyler K. Gordon: 54:27

Yeah, and I think that perfectly encompasses the story of the prodigal son. The older brother is like no way, are you kidding me? He went and squandered all of your money in this foreign land. We, as the church church are the older brother. We collectively, as our culture, can sometimes be that person where it's like okay, well, I mean, you left, you dug your grave, that's on you, you've got to figure it out yourself. Where it's like no, that's-.

Sam Binns: 54:56

We should have the attitude of the father.

Tyler K. Gordon: 54:58

Of the father, but oftentimes we find ourselves as the older brother, so we don't have to get to this last one. We talked about it. Right, it only affects the afterlife, not our current life. And I said you know?

Sam Binns: 55:08

Yeah, you said that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 55:10

It applies now, here, right now. Whatever you're doing right now, atonement applies.

Sam Binns: 55:35

That there are times when I'm there's been a point where I've been sitting in bed crying at the fact that I am in my own wonderful light to be able to see in your own life that you are at a spot where you feel like you're right with God, where you feel like you're on the right path, where you feel free and you feel empowered to continue to progress. That's something I have personal experience with.

Tyler K. Gordon: 56:09

I oftentimes the power of the atonement, obviously, as I said at the top of the episode, is such a powerful thing in my own personal life and I think about the prodigal son and I think about that time in my life, the moment that I knew that I needed to come back to the church and I used the atonement multiple times. But this was such a powerful time for me that it means a lot to me and I think about just saying out loud I just need to be numbered among the saints, whatever that might mean. And it's so crazy to me that I even had the thought that maybe the atonement wasn't powerful enough to even bring me back from where I was. But it was, and that is, is still is. I still wander off the path sometimes and it still is powerful enough, even more powerful than anything that I could ever do.

Tyler K. Gordon: 57:07

And that's been such a sobering fact to me since rejoining the church and it makes me realize how much love Christ has for me, for Sam, for you, who's listening, sam for you, who's listening. Christ loves you and would do anything, including performing the atonement. He would die for you and you know I just I love him. I love that he has this much love in his heart for me. It gives me solace and allows me to feel like, okay, you know what? Yeah, I messed up and I keep messing up and I will keep messing up, but I can keep going, I can do this, you can do this.

Sam Binns: 57:55

Yeah, sitting in the heat of sin, this whole conversation looks a lot different to someone who's sitting inside of the heat of their own mistakes and feeling that shame and that guilt and those are two separate things. And the negative things that we talked about. Feeling that loathing for themselves when somebody is sitting at that point those things are what is blocking you from feeling like this conversation applies to you. Those are the things that are in the way is your own thoughts about yourself and that's why, when we remember our identity as children of God, children of Christ through the covenant and disciples of Christ, it changes the way you see yourself and helps you remove those harmful thoughts about yourself, those harmful beliefs about yourself. When Christ helps you change your nature, he's helping you change your beliefs about yourself and that changes everything for how you act in your everyday life.

Tyler K. Gordon: 59:07

I just I love talking about Jesus Christ and I love Sam. I love that we do this podcast because it helps me to remember him daily. It helps me to remember his sacrifice daily and, yeah, sometimes I think I'm going to come back and listen to this episode and I'll be in the heat of sin and it's going to feel like a very different episode. But I think it's important to remember that, no matter where you are or where you're going or how far you think you've gone, you can come back to the peace and the hope in Jesus Christ's atonement right now and start applying it right now. And it's not even like a even for sins, where it's a bigger sin and you have to go through a little bit more of the process. You can start to feel that healing process right now. It's not a okay once I do this or once I do this checklist or once I no, it's now, it's here, it's in front of you.

Sam Binns: 1:00:16

There's no, I think, for more serious sins, say for confessing to the bishop. When you confess to the bishop it can feel like the release of the weight, but I'd almost challenge someone to find the release before you go talk to the bishop, because the confession itself is part of the process, but the placing of your trust in Christ is going to be what's more powerful, because that trust is part of the definition for the word faith, and so placing your faith in Christ ahead of time, before you go through steps of confession and forsaking sin, is going to do a lot more for your state before God and help you change a lot faster.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:01:10

Even if you're not in this very serious sin situation, you can put your trust in Christ right now so that if you ever do fall into that, you can easily retrieve that trust that you had in Christ and more easily go through that process. It's a hard process, but it's well worth it, I promise. I promise, I promise that as you go through the process of repentance multiple times, you will fall to your knees and, yeah, you have this godly guilt, but you'll fall to your knees instead out of guilt, but out of praise, out of love.

Sam Binns: 1:01:49

There's a scripture I want to share really quick that I was just reminded of. It's Mosiah 4.30, but this much I can tell you. So we're talking about the atonement, so I'll pause here on the scripture. We're talking about the atonement and we're talking about the atonement, so I'll pause here on the scripture. We're talking about the atonement and we're talking about repentance as part of part of our utilization of the atonement of christ and what he's done.

Sam Binns: 1:02:14

But, just like king benjamin, we can't tell you all of the ways that in his, in his words. I can't tell you all the ways you can sin, but this much I can tell you that if you do not watch yourselves and your thoughts and your words and your deeds and observe the commandments of God and continue in the faith of what you've heard concerning the coming of our Lord and I'll pause there I think we're all pretty good at observing commandments of watching what we do and what we say and watching ourselves in general, I think thoughts is a spot that we all tend to be a little weaker in. I think thoughts we tend to berate ourselves a lot and we have a very negative view of ourselves. And that's part of what I've talked about earlier is. I think if we watch our thoughts a lot more, those beliefs will shift and that change in nature is going to be a lot easier.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:03:13

As we are kind of starting to wrap things up. I don't know where you're at, but as we're starting to wrap things up, I just want to put one more thing in the meat of the episode, and I think you know we've been talking a lot about sin and repentance. But again I come back to the Alma 7-11 verse of. He suffered pains and afflictions and temptations of every kind.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:03:36

The atonement encompasses the repentance and the sin part, but it encompasses going through what you're going through, every single part of what you're going through, and he knows it. He knows what you're going through and he is the one who can succor us, who can bring us to him. He is the one who comes running to us, like in the parable of the prodigal son, when we start to come back to him, when we come to him through our him, when we come to him through our pains, through our sicknesses, through our afflictions. He's the one who comes running to us immediately because he knows, tyler, I know what you are going through, Sam. I know what you're going through, or you listening. I know what you're going through right now and whether that's sin, whether that's sickness, whether that's pain, both physical or mental or emotional, whatever that may be, he knows, he knows.

Sam Binns: 1:04:29

He just wants to give you a great big hug. Yes, he does. I'm sure he's somewhere out there right now, just so sad that he can't physically hug you. So that's why he inspires others to do it.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:04:43

Do you have like a specific call to action that you want people to?

Sam Binns: 1:04:46

do. I think my spiel that's I've been, I've been on for most of this episode is watching your thoughts and watching your grudges against yourself of shame and loathing for yourself. I think I would invite people to work on that, first and foremost for yourself. I think it'll be very, very healing to yourself.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:05:11

As a human being. As a human being, simply watch your thoughts about yourself. And, yeah, I agree, I think that we're often too hard on ourselves, whether you believe in God or don't. I think we're often too hard on ourselves, whether you believe in God or don't. I think we're often too hard on ourselves and too critical, and I think we can let up a little bit. It's good to be critical, it's good to want to improve, but to a certain extent, it's like, okay, you're not helping yourself.

Sam Binns: 1:05:34

Make that a priority in your life right now.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:05:36

I like that. Okay, everyone. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you've gotten to the end of this episode, you are a prime listener. We appreciate you. We wanted to take a second and remind you we do release episodes every second and fourth Saturday of the month and because June has five Saturdays, we won't be releasing another episode until July 13th. So be watching for that to be the next episode. Thank you so much for listening and we will that to be the next episode. Thank you so much for listening and we will catch you in the next episode. Adios.