Katie Wesley: 0:01

I mean, I personally have always struggled with that expectation because it's just so, it just seems so high. But then, as I've grown older, I've realized that as long as I'm doing what he needs me to do, then I'm fine with where I'm at in my journey, if that makes sense. I need to stop comparing myself to others. I think that's where a lot of the expectation was coming from. I was comparing myself to all these people in my ward who were. They seemed like the cookie cutter. But then, like, as I got to know people, as I got older, I realized that they weren't as cookie cutter as I thought they were, and so I think that's just an important thing to like. Maybe just don't compare yourself to others.

Tyler K. Gordon: 0:38

Like, just work on your journey hello and welcome everyone to the from grace to grace podcast. My name is tyler and I'm here with sam, my co-host, and we are doing another guest episode. Katie's here to kind of help us talk through this subject. The episode title today is so you have have an Ex Mormon. It's funny, sam, don't shake your head at me.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:08

It's so funny. So we're going to be talking about dealing with difficult conversations with, maybe, people who have left the church or might be antagonistic towards the church. So we have Katie here. Katie has been kind of helping us behind the scenes with a lot of the podcast stuff, kind of helping us with listening to some of the episodes before they release and editing them. So that's how we know Katie. Katie's from our ward and we're good friends with Katie. So, katie, you want to introduce yourself.

Katie Wesley: 1:35

Sure, I never know what to say when people ask this question. I usually just do the default I'm going to school. I'm doing electrical engineering at the University of Utah, so go Utes, fall. I'm going to school, I'm doing electrical engineering at the University of Utah, so go Utes. And I have one more semester until I graduate. So that's really exciting. I'm very excited for that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:51

So electrical engineering. What got you into electrical engineering to start?

Katie Wesley: 2:01

I did competitive robotics in high school and it was one of those things where my parents just told me I was going to go do and I had no interest. I didn't know how to do anything, Literally first day. I didn't even know how to use like a power tool. And then, you know, by the end of my high school experience, I was like in charge of the team and we, you know, went to the national no, not national international competition. So it was pretty cool. I had a good experience with it and, yeah, it was awesome cool.

Tyler K. Gordon: 2:23

Yeah, sam. How are you doing today? Great just great. Nothing, nothing crazy. Not even dandy, you're, you're not, you're not enthusiastic about this episode, like me? Yeah, no, I'm, I'm enthusiastic okay what just a? Mellow enthusiast wow, I mean that makes sense because, like you're like the mellow one out of the two of us, I'm the one who bounces off the walls because you're the mellow one out of the two of us, I'm the one who bounces off the walls because you got to have-.

Katie Wesley: 2:48

Is that why you have fancy cushioning on the walls?

Tyler K. Gordon: 2:51

Uh-huh, protect myself. Yeah, we have some sound cushions on the walls now so that our sound doesn't bounce as much. We're working on it. We're going to go ahead and get started with the episode itself. So the first thing that I kind of wanted to talk about was specifically what is an ex-Mormon or someone who might be antagonistic towards the church, and this can be someone who maybe has left the church or maybe just never joined the church, but might be feeling upset about some of the things that we believe. So does anybody have any thoughts about ex-Mormons?

Katie Wesley: 3:26

So I actually wanted to go over non-members people who have never been a member of the church and just haven't had the chance to be part of it versus ex-members. And so non-members they've never experienced the church. Ex-members they've been there. They probably grew up with it. Usually I feel like that's a good statistic. Most of the people have grown up in the church and then something happens and they leave, and so sometimes people leave happy, they're fine, they don't hate the church, it's just not part of where they're at in their journey. And then other people are more bitter towards the church, towards people in the church and things like that. So yeah, I don't know if you guys have anything to add to that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 4:11

Yeah Well, and I was thinking about this right, Because there are some people who leave the church and end up, you know, they're fine with it and they've kind of made amends and they've kind of let it go to rest. And then there are some people that are still maybe a little bit upset and to that I say I understand, I've been there, I get it. I was pretty upset when I first left the church and so I think that there are healthy ways to deal with that being upset and I think there are unhealthy ways to deal with that being upset. But I think that people leave faith all the time. Whether it's the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints or it's some other religion, People leave faith all the time.

Tyler K. Gordon: 4:54

And it can be a very traumatic experience as people are leaving and I think, as members, for anybody going through any type of traumatic experience, whether it's leaving the church or losing a loved one or anything like that, we're instructed to mourn with those who mourn and comfort those who stand in need of comfort. And it doesn't say mourn with those who mourn unless they've left your church, then you can kick them while they're down. That's not what we're told. So I think, as we kind of approach this subject for people who might be members of the faith and maybe people who have left but are feeling upset, I would just say you know we're here to listen and to maybe help you through these things. But I guess a question for both of you, Sam, I kind of asked you this a little while ago and I think your answer was that you've been kind of surrounded by people who have been mostly faithful. Do you know any people who have left the church?

Sam Binns: 5:50

Yeah, actually I do. Okay, what I've found with those who I do know who've left the church is that they're still fantastic people most of the time. There's some that I know of, but they're not personally right. There's some that I know of, but they're like, not personally right. There's some that I know of that aren't fantastic, but most of the people who leave are still fantastic human beings and they're the kind of people I'd want to be around. And even some of the people who never join like they're still fantastic people and people I'd like to be around.

Tyler K. Gordon: 6:23

So with that, actually you know what, katie, I'll ask you the same question. I assume that you know people who've left the church.

Katie Wesley: 6:26

And that's why I was so excited to do this episode, because you mentioned at the beginning, this is a difficult topic and I have so many friends and family who are close to me who have towards the church and then all the way to the opposite extreme, you know. So it's definitely interesting for me to kind of be in the middle and be like why do you like hate the church?

Tyler K. Gordon: 6:51

And it's like you know, and because I love it, still trying to bridge the gap with these people that you love. I mean, like Sam said, they're still fantastic people, yeah, exactly, fantastic humans, and you want to keep that relationship. But I don't know it. Fantastic people, fantastic humans, and you want to keep that relationship, but I don't know it makes it really, really difficult. And I guess we're kind of starting to jump into this third bullet point here so we can kind of move into that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 7:15

But I did want to say, before we jump into that, that people both in the church and outside of the church do experience trauma and that happens. And some people choose to dig deeper into their faith as a result of that trauma and some people decide to leave the faith as a result of that trauma. And I don't know, from my perspective and the things that I've experienced in my own life, I find that faith helps me through difficult times. But at the end of the day, everybody has to make that decision for themselves. There are some things that happen because we're in a fallen world right, we talked about the mortal existence last episode and we're in a fallen state and sometimes bad things happen, and sometimes bad things happen to good people. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. I think that's something also that I want to point out is I'm not Katie's, not, Sam's, not.

Tyler K. Gordon: 8:16

We're not trying to speak for a group of people who might not be represented here. We just want to speak on behalf of people who might be believing Latter-day Saints and who have to have these conversations with people who leave the church. I find that there are two groups of people who might be upset towards the church who leave. One group tends to decide not to talk about it. Right, they're very closed off to talking about the church because there's a lot of emotion there. The church has a lot of emotion involved in its belief system. It's a lifestyle, and so I find that people who leave tend to either close off and say, nope, this is a topic that I don't want to talk about. And then there's another group of people who end up leaving and that's all they want to talk about. They just want to talk about, sometimes, the harms that they went through in the church, but also just the harms that maybe the church has caused for people around them.

Sam Binns: 9:13

And with how many times I've run into the just online, just the idea of somebody saying I've left the church and people are being patronizing things like that. They have this such a negative view of members left the church and people are being patronizing things like that. They have this such a negative view of members of the church that I almost wonder if we can't. I feel like there's a lot that we could do to improve our relations with them. I think we fail a lot when it comes to actually talking with them in a way that doesn't feel either we want you back, and here's some reasons why. Or like why did you leave right and accusatory tones as well. It's such a weird balance to strike and I understand that many members of the church haven't struck that balance because it's hard to get that, but how do we do that?

Tyler K. Gordon: 10:08

I think that can be really difficult, and I think online is a whole different beast. I think both members and non-members and ex-Mormons all feel a lot more empowered behind a keyboard. It's just human nature, right? Yeah, it's easier. You're not face-to-face with someone and so you don't have to deal with. Oh, this is a real person with real emotions. That's just human, and I think that that's a problem with online. But I think the important thing is going in with an attitude to listen. You want to hear. You're not there to necessarily share, but you want to hear what they have to say and internalize that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 10:46

It's that idea of when you're having a conversation, you're having a conversation to listen, not like formulating okay, I've got to respond to this, I'm going to formulate my response, listen, and then you can take a second and formulate a response. So I think, approaching conversations with the intent to listen, formulate a response.

Sam Binns: 11:05

So I think approaching conversations with the intent to listen and I think it has to be coming from a spot of you're not trying to give advice either as with many conversations about difficult things in someone's life, most of the time they want someone to listen first and then, if they ask for advice or ideas behind it, say advice or ideas behind it, say what do you think or what could you offer to this? That would be a spot where maybe you could start saying some things that you think might be helpful.

Tyler K. Gordon: 11:35

I think when the Savior ministered to people, he didn't always preach to them. Sometimes I think his ministering was just maybe sitting with them. He would sit with them at dinner and who knows what he was saying, who knows what he was teaching at that time, but he would be there and just to listen. And yeah, it's, it's our job to share the gospel and I think that's an important thing. But sometimes we need to use discernment to determine what is going to be the most helpful. I don't know that always being preachy is necessarily the best thing. So Sam and I have been talking a lot. Any thoughts on this, Katie?

Katie Wesley: 12:06

There's so many. That's the thing. It's just because Sam mentions, sometimes people who leave the church feel like attacked by members sometimes, or like they just because members are like why aren't you wanting to be at church, or something like that. It's like hard for us to understand. And so one thing that I think for ex-members that's hard for them to understand sometimes is to understand the separation between a member's opinion versus the doctrine of the church. And so sometimes when you're in sacrament, for example, someone might say something during a talk but that might be more of an opinion that could hurt someone's feelings.

Katie Wesley: 12:45

And I guess that's the thing. And I feel like from the people that I talked to to prepare for this episode that have left the church, they said that one of the main reasons they left is because they felt like they weren't included or that they kind of felt targeted by certain people Like they can't like come up with the exact situation, but it was just in general. They just felt like they couldn't be themselves at church because they were being judged of where they were at in their faith or how they were doing things or all of those different things.

Sam Binns: 13:14

And here's a question I have. We're trying to build a Zion community, and in a Zion community would that type of thing still happen?

Tyler K. Gordon: 13:25

Yeah, I would say yes.

Sam Binns: 13:27

So it's still possible to offend people, even if you're living in a Zion community.

Tyler K. Gordon: 13:32

Yeah, well, so Zion community right, we're talking one heart, one mind, yeah, and I don't think that necessarily means everything's good all the time. I think what that means is when I offend you or if you feel offended and if I don't know about it, you come and tell me and you say, hey, tyler, you said this thing and it upset me. And I say, okay, why did it upset you? And I listen and then, based off of that, we come up with an amicable agreement about like, okay, yeah, no, I see where you're coming from and I understand why you're upset, and you get to say what you think should happen. I get to say what I think should happen, and I think that there's an agreement struck. I don't think that everything is just automatically fixed in a Zion community.

Katie Wesley: 14:16

I totally agree with that, tyler, and I think that's kind of where our agency goes in, where if we didn't have agency, everything would just be okay all the time, but being able to choose, to come up with a solution together and to have an adult conversation.

Tyler K. Gordon: 14:31

I also think that I want to say this very lightly, but there is an important thing to recognize is when somebody's saying their opinion versus the doctrine of the church. But also if you recognize, oh, this is an opinion. And then you get to recognize, okay, how am I going to react to this opinion, you do get to kind of internalize how you react. And that's something that I found has been super helpful for me in coming back to the church, because people still say things that I'm like whoa, please don't say that. And initially my initial reaction is one of like fight or flight, I want to do something about this. But then, as I kind of dive deeper into well, why might I be feeling this? Then I start to recognize, okay, I can choose how I'm going to react. I might not be able to choose how I feel about it, but you can choose how you react to it.

Katie Wesley: 15:29

Another thing I wanted to bring up was another person I talked to mentioned how one of their family members who left the church. They think that they left the church to avoid feeling guilty or ashamed of themselves, or just to avoid disappointing others or God, and so that's a lot. It's a bulky statement, so I don't know if you guys want to like dive in what do you guys have any thoughts about that?

Sam Binns: 15:53

Yeah, what do you think about the expectations? Living in the church, there's a lot of expectations and many people sometimes feel that they don't fit those expectations and what people call a cookie cutter member. How do we deal with that?

Katie Wesley: 16:10

That's a great question, Tyler. You looked like you had something to say, but I mean, I can, if you want or if you want to take this one.

Tyler K. Gordon: 16:16

It's all you.

Katie Wesley: 16:16

I mean, I personally have always struggled with that expectation because it's just so, it's just seems so high. But then as I've grown older, I've realized that as long as I'm doing what he needs me to do, then I'm fine with where I'm at in my journey, if that makes sense. Like I need to stop comparing myself to others. I think that's where a lot of the expectation was coming from. You know, I was comparing myself to all these people in my ward who were. They seemed like the cookie cutter. But then, like, as I got to know people as I got older, I realized that they weren't as cookie cutter as I thought they were, and so I think that's just an important thing to like. Maybe just don't compare yourself to others. You're like, just work on your journey.

Tyler K. Gordon: 16:55

I love that I was pulling up gospel library to go to the cookie cutter section in the handbook and then I remembered there isn't a cookie cutter section oh, thank goodness I know.

Sam Binns: 17:07

Oh, thank goodness I know, surprise, surprise.

Tyler K. Gordon: 17:12

But no, there is no cookie cutter section in the handbook. There are expectations for members to live, but there isn't a one-way fits-all way to live the gospel and I think as the church has grown into a global church, we've seen those growing pains and we've adjusted appropriately and we're still adjusting. Whenever there's new sections in the handbook announced, I'm there to read them and to be excited about them. I think just recently, just last year, there were rewritten sections of the handbook, which is just so exciting that we're as a church, we're listening and then we're responding, and I think that's great. We might not be as quick as some people would want us to be, and I understand that, but we're getting there. We're going to talk about strategies for maintaining relationships, unless you have something else that you want to go off of.

Katie Wesley: 18:01

No, the only other thing I had in my list was like questions and doubts that they can't be answered Like. That's one of another reason why they might leave the church, but I don't know if that's something we're wanting to go into.

Tyler K. Gordon: 18:09

Yeah, I think that can go under the next bullet point that talk about an approach to sensitive subjects related to faith and church.

Katie Wesley: 18:17

Okay, Cool, do you think?

Tyler K. Gordon: 18:18

that fits. Sure, yeah, okay. So let's talk first about strategies for maintaining relationships with people who have maybe left the church. I have family members and a handful of friends who maybe never joined the church but live in Utah, so you know the church is everywhere, it's literally the streets we drive on, so they have an opinion about the church. And then, too, I've had, I have family members and friends who have, who have left it, and it can be really difficult to maintain a relationship when my whole I am so enveloped in the church, I love the church so much and I do a lot of things church-related, that it can be difficult sometimes to maintain a relationship with them. And so I guess a question for both of you is for people who you know who have left the church, how do you maintain your relationships with them while also still being authentic? That's like the hardest thing for me.

Katie Wesley: 19:15

Well, I think the first thing is to know who you're like, where they're at Like. If they are angry and upset towards the church, then you know you might want to change your strategy. And so, like some people I interact with at school, for example, I guess I just try to be the best example I can to them. I don't bring up church, I try to avoid it because it is such a touchy topic with them, but by you know, being happy or like like I tell them that I'm going to like a church activity on Mondays or something like that, or I go to the temple and I I hope that they can see how it makes my life simpler, I think, and also happier. Not compared to their life, I'm just saying for Katie, compared to Katie's life, katie with the church is happier than Katie without the church. I'm not saying that my life's happier than theirs. I want to clarify. I just hope that they can see that I am happier with the church. And yeah, I don't know.

Tyler K. Gordon: 20:13

So living by example is a big thing for you.

Katie Wesley: 20:17

For that specific person I have in my mind, yeah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 20:20

And I think it's important to also remember that people who have left the church also aren't cookie cutter. They're all one type of person and they are the worst. Here's the thing is, they're not cookie cutter either, and so that's why I like what you're saying here with. You know, treat everybody as an individual. You have a different relationship with everybody, and just because person A responds in this way doesn't mean person B is going to respond in the same way, and I think that's. I think that's just good relationship advice, just people like human beings. I don't know, it's kind of crazy.

Katie Wesley: 20:53

So apparently this is actually the relationship podcast.

Tyler K. Gordon: 20:56

Yeah, welcome to the relationship podcast All of us are single right now, yeah, we're in a single board for a reason.

Katie Wesley: 21:03

It's fine Us giving out advice, it's fine, us giving out advice, it's fine anyway. But so so that's like an angry friend example. But then also I have friends who are not angry towards the church. They just like their life just doesn't involve the church right now in their journey, and we talk about it.

Katie Wesley: 21:21

We have honest conversations and we've I've even recently had like a really good conversation where we talked about like the three um degrees of glory yeah, that word, the three degrees of glory and she had a misunderstanding from my perspective and so like we talked about it honestly, we had an open conversation and I feel like we both had a better understanding of where we were at, you know, and we were able to keep away like anger and stuff like that and have a good conversation.

Tyler K. Gordon: 21:51

Kind of going along with that train of thought having conversations, difficult conversations maybe, conversations about like questions that they have that maybe you don't even know the answer to, like how do you personally approach those conversations, or what do you do in preparation for that? Or what would you suggest someone do if they come to you and they say, katie, I have a friend who wants to have a really difficult conversation and we've planned it out for some strange reason, what would you tell them?

Katie Wesley: 22:21

Well, first of all I'd be like I don't know that much, I didn't serve a mission so I haven't studied for two years years, you know, like a lot of people have here in Utah and but then I would go talk to we could cut this, no.

Tyler K. Gordon: 22:33

I was just going to say, but it's important to remember, like I think that's important, right, I think that's like super important. This is a church of volunteers. We haven't gone, like maybe we've gone to seminary and that's it right. Like maybe we've served a mission, maybe we haven't None of us, even on this podcast. I think it's important to recognize. You know, we have microphones and a brain and that's about it, and I mean single brain, because Sam is probably the only smart one here, but he's the mellow brain out of the group right.

Tyler K. Gordon: 23:04

What I'm saying is like we are a church of volunteers, and I think that's important to remember as you're approaching a difficult conversation is there are going to be things that maybe you don't know the answer to, and that's okay. It doesn't have to be an earth shattering thing if you say I don't know.

Katie Wesley: 23:20

Well, and I have had to say I don't know. And then usually I would follow up with like I don't know but I can learn more about it, or I would come talk to you guys, my smart church friends, tyler's blushing over here.

Sam Binns: 23:34

Let's just hope you don't have dumb church friends oh you're right.

Tyler K. Gordon: 23:37

You're right, it is a joke. Sometimes you do have to say I don't know.

Katie Wesley: 23:41

Yeah, Well it might be awkward and they might be like well, why don't you know, don't you like go to church every Sunday? And I'm like, well, we don't like talk about everything every Sunday. It's only two hours, guys.

Tyler K. Gordon: 23:52

Well, and and to that, like if they're, if they're that upset or excited, like I would say.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:00

The first thing that I would say is are you asking questions because you have questions or are you asking questions because you want me to have questions? And if the if the answer is it's because I I want me to have questions and if the answer is it's because I want you to have questions, then I don't know that I'm down to have this conversation. I just don't know that it's a healthy conversation, because I understand that you have questions and if you want legitimate answers, I'm willing to dig deep and find those answers for you. But if your questions are just because you want me to have questions, I don't think that's a healthy conversation.

Sam Binns: 24:32

You're not going to get the result you want.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:33

Yes, yeah, exactly, and so I don't know. I think it can be difficult, just depending on the motives of the person. So, if they get that upset about like, well, why don't you know the answer, then it's like well, okay, whoa, first off, whoa and second off. I just don't know, and that's okay.

Katie Wesley: 24:51

And it's like I'm only 22. Some people study the church their whole lives and they still don't know, and so it's unrealistic for me to know for some of these things.

Tyler K. Gordon: 25:06

No, I agree, I agree, and so I think it's appropriate to not have the answer to everything. Let's say that they come to you with a difficult question that maybe you do know the answer to how do you approach the conversation or what do you do.

Katie Wesley: 25:20

I would probably ask what they do know first, and then just to make sure we're see where we're starting the conversation at, and then we can build off of that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 25:32

I love what you said about gauging their understanding first. I think that's a missionary thing to do as well is gauge their understanding, see where they're at, but then listen to what they have to say and just hear them out and oftentimes questions have a motive behind them and just hear them out, and oftentimes questions have a motive behind them. I'm asking a question because I feel something or because I've experienced something, and so why is this the case? Why does the church do this? Why? And it's because, ultimately, there's something typically that's happened that made me wonder about this, and so I think listening and then trying to understand where they're coming from with it even further is important as well, and I think just approaching the conversation with love and humbleness and if you want to have a difficult conversation with someone, I think that's just always important- Well and also just like mutual respect for each other, like in their opinions, beliefs.

Katie Wesley: 26:27

I feel like you can't have a good relationship or a conversation, especially about faith, where you know you don't even like, want or care to listen to what the other person has to say. That's not a conversation.

Sam Binns: 26:42

When someone leaves the church, it's usually not for doctrinal reasons, I'd say in most cases. It's usually not for doctrinal reasons. I'd say in most cases because growing up in the church you're taught things that are just the basics of what's the central portions, or the culture, or the just personal issues, with their own relationship to God and to the church, that they don't think it fits, and personally I have a hard time with that, just because for me the only issues that I would ever have would be doctrine. I understand the humanness of people in the church and the social culture that's here is never going to be what we want it to be up until probably the millennium. So for me I don't really have any issues, and so what I'm trying to say here is how am I supposed to see their side of things when I'm so far in a spot where it doesn't really apply for me?

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:03

So yeah, when I left the church, I had moral issues, the way that I described it was. There were some moral issues that I had problems with, but the thing that forced me out were actually those doctrinal issues. I had those moral issues and then I read doctrinal issues and the combination of the two it was like, okay, I'm done, I'm out, okay so it actually is doctrinal.

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:28

It can be. It can be. I think that moral issues can also force people out. It could be like chicken or the egg which came first, but I think that the combination of the two is what sometimes forces people out. That being said, I think it depends.

Sam Binns: 28:42

Sorry, go ahead. So I'm just going to put this potential thing. Say you and I had met three years ago. How would that have gone?

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:52

Oh, you would have hated me and I would have hated you. And why?

Sam Binns: 28:56

Why would that have happened? So let's teleport back in time. If we had had a conversation in that day, what would it have looked like? I think the thing is Because you've got me coming from such an extreme position and you from the opposite.

Tyler K. Gordon: 29:16

Yeah, I would have probably come off swinging right, like my first thing would have been like, well, what about this? How about this? Okay, you may have answers to these doctrinal issues, but what about this moral issue that you don't have an answer to? Those do exist. There are things that it's like I don't know, like eternal marriage is a thing, and it's like, ooh, that's, that's difficult for our LGBTQ brothers and sisters and there isn't one right answer for that. And so I personally, three years ago Tyler, would have been like oh, you want to go toe to toe, let's go to toe to toe.

Tyler K. Gordon: 29:55

Let would have been like oh, you want to go toe to toe, let's go to toe to toe, let's let's talk about this. And and I think it's because I would have been coming from a defensive position and and so my suggestion to you if, if Tyler now was refereeing this conversation between you two, I would have said just don't don't have the conversation because he's just defensive. And I would have said just don't have the conversation because he's just defensive. And so that's my thoughts on the situation. I don't know if that answers your question.

Tyler K. Gordon: 30:19

I think that there can be moral issues that people leave the church over, and I think it can be difficult if you're in the position that you're in, to see. But attempting to understand, attempting to step into their shoes, I think is an important step in having these difficult conversations of trying to see like, okay, I don't agree with their position, but let's see how far I can understand their position, and really trying your hardest to be like I don't have all the information that they have, but with the information I have about them, I can see X, y and Z.

Katie Wesley: 30:49

Well, and I think that's where listening and empathizing with them comes in, because you can't even begin to understand them if you don't pay attention to them. Listen to what they're saying and then also understanding how they're feeling. I think those are very important to that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 31:03

Does that answer you feeling content with those answers?

Katie Wesley: 31:06

Sure Cool, you got anything that you're wanting to go off of so one thing that I thought was interesting that was brought up, you know, when I was talking to friends and family and stuff about this, they mentioned how, like, the prejudice can go both ways when you are interacting with people. So, like you mentioned tyler, three years ago tyler would have been angry towards sam, but there's also been experiences that I've witnessed not me personally, but like where, where a member of the church was angry towards someone else. You know a similar situation.

Sam Binns: 31:34

And that's probably what I would need to be avoiding is how do I make sure that I'm not coming off that way or internally not having those thoughts, or at least curbing them?

Tyler K. Gordon: 31:47

And I was going to say, like you get to choose how you react to the situation. Not necessarily you might have the thought of like wow, this guy's an idiot, what is he thinking? But we don't say that out loud. We get to choose, and I think that's a Christ-like attribute. To do is to be able to necessarily grab hold of your thoughts and say, no, I'm in charge.

Sam Binns: 32:09

And that is that here's what we're going to do about this situation. We're going to handle this more like the way Christ would.

Tyler K. Gordon: 32:16

And having that higher self take control, because I think when we're put into those situations, in any situation, give it like politics or religion or something difficult that's going on in the world right now, it doesn't matter the situation. I think oftentimes our animalistic nature wants to come out and do that fight or flight thing that I was talking about earlier. But what we need to do as members of the church and, honestly, people who aren't members of the church can do this too is take hold of your higher self and say no, this is how I'm going to react to this situation.

Katie Wesley: 32:49

Yeah, no, that's a great way to handle that, I think, just as a person towards any other person. Another thing I wanted to bring up is that, like, let's say, you are in a situation where, like, a friend or family member leaves the church. I think it's important to acknowledge that both sides are going to be hurting, because it's a really personal and emotional thing, like you were mentioning earlier, tyler, to make that decision to leave the church, and I've had people leave the church and I was personally hurt or surprised and didn't know what to do exactly at the moment. And then also, I can imagine for them, it was hard for them too to like have to cut those ties with their friends and family in that way.

Tyler K. Gordon: 33:31

High levels of emotion going on. I mean, the church has a lot to it, it's a lifestyle, and so when you're leaving, of course there are going to be high levels of emotions and for people who are staying, there are going to be high levels of emotions, and I think so when you approach conversations, just recognizing like hey, this is going to be a high level emotion kind of conversation, am I prepared for that? Am I ready for that? So, just making sure, checking in with yourself and saying, hey, little Tyler inside of me that wants to fight everyone, are you OK with this? And if little Tyler isn't OK with it, then then maybe it's not the day.

Katie Wesley: 34:10

The last thing? Well, I have two things, I guess. So another thing I wanted to bring up is that it's important to understand that people who might have left the church a friend brought this up to me that they often feel isolated because, especially living in Utah, where so much of the population is in the church, like somehow, you know, like either at Sam's level or at someone else's level, I don't know either at Sam's level or at someone else's level, I don't know. Anyway, but you know, like it's, it's hard to like, like I said, cut off that tie with all that huge community. I mean that's such a significant part of Utah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 34:46

But I think it's important to recognize that if they choose to cut off those ties, they can, but we need to be the members who say our, our churches. On the outside of them it says visitors welcome. And I think I think that's like, I think we say that and we're like oh yeah, visitors are welcome, but I don't know that we live that. We need to like internalize that and, yeah, there are. There are temples say holiness to the Lord and you have to be worthy in order to enter the temple, but our churches visitors welcome, any visitor, the poor, the hungry, the stranger, everyone should feel like this is home and it doesn't matter what background you're coming from. This should feel like home.

Katie Wesley: 35:32

Well, I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, just like that. You know they can be welcomed at church. But also I'm thinking outside of church settings too, like if you come across someone at the store. I've had pushy members before I feel like is the best way to explain it where I felt like I was being preached to even though I'm in the church, and so I can imagine how someone who isn't in the church would feel like attacked and isolated because of that, if that makes sense.

Sam Binns: 35:58

Yeah it does. Yeah, and I think that issue there's a quote here from Thomas S Monson. It says never let a problem to be solved become more important than a person to be loved. I think that's the side of things that I would have to avoid is trying to fix maybe their issues with the church. Trying to fix the things, it's more. I think what's going to happen there is. That's where they'll feel preached to because of the fact that you're trying to fix something and you're not so much focused on them on them and that's more of what they want is connection there rather than on church topics, because if they're upset, they're not ready for that conversation yet.

Katie Wesley: 36:42

So I guess my question is for you guys how do we make that connection without it coming off as like preachy or trying to like force them, you know, like trying to trick them to go to church, you know? Because I feel like that's what a lot of people think that we're trying to do when we're trying to bridge that isolation.

Sam Binns: 36:58

I don't think you have to talk about the topics of bring them to church, things like that. Or why'd you leave things like that to understand how much you care first before you try to share anything, because that has to be when they ask for it rather than when you want to give it.

Tyler K. Gordon: 37:24

I have two thoughts. I think, wanting to fix problems like you were talking about at first, I think that's part of our pioneer heritage and ancestry. We're like we're going to put our shoulders to the wheel and we're going to work this out and we're just going to do it right, Like we have that in our culture and so it's hard to break away from that.

Sam Binns: 37:42

Yeah, it is.

Tyler K. Gordon: 37:43

It is we're a problem solving people, and that's a beautiful thing, but I think it can be problematic in some situations.

Sam Binns: 37:50

Because it'll translate to trying to solve people.

Katie Wesley: 37:53

Yes, where that's not quite so simple. It implies that they're broken and they feel like you think that they're broken.

Tyler K. Gordon: 38:01

So I think that that can be difficult for some people. I think we also. The second thing is we can live by example, and it doesn't have to be like a holier-than-thou kind of example. It can just be like, hey, I'm living my life and I'm pretty happy. And yeah, if you ask me like hey, why are you feeling so happy right now? And if you want to know the answer, I'll say it's Jesus Christ. But sometimes it's just like I just got a pay raise which makes me feel happy.

Tyler K. Gordon: 38:35

But you know, like you can share in those moments when it feels appropriate and they ask you like what? Like what's good in your life. Or you know, I'll do this sometimes with like people who have left the church and they ask me like hey, what are you doing tonight? And I'll I'll answer honestly and I'll say, hey, I'm going to Institute or I'm going to the. I'll say hey, I'm going to Institute or I'm going to the temple or I'm going to Family Home Evening. And I'm not going to lie to them because they asked me. And if they ask me then I assume that they actually want to know and they're not just asking just for fun.

Tyler K. Gordon: 39:07

So I think it's important to have that unconditional love. I think, as Latter-day Saints, it's important for us to have that love towards all people and I think that we can improve on that as a culture, as a church. I think we are improving on it and we've made a lot of headway and I love the church so much and I don't think that can be understated. I love the gospel of Jesus Christ, I love the church and, honestly, there are parts of the culture that I don't love, but there are parts of the culture that I do love and appreciate and respect. And you know, I think it's easy for everyone to talk about. These are the things that I don't like and I think it's harder for us to recognize. No, there are good things that we do. I think being a problem-solving people is a good thing in a lot of ways, but it can be a vice.

Sam Binns: 40:00

I think on a ward level there's so much potential power to a ward itself that could strengthen people inside and outside of the ward. We have the organization for wards set up in such a way that we could do a lot of good in ministering, but we often fail to reach that potential and I think that's one of the ways we could start to address all of the topic of today. Ways we could start to address all of the topic of today is making use of the organizational structure of the church, because it's pretty dang organized. We've got a powerful organization that if we utilized it in the way it's meant to be utilized, with Christ-like love powering the machine, everything would change About a ward, about a stake, about the church itself.

Sam Binns: 41:02

It starts with the individual and that's why it's so difficult to build that Zion community is because everybody's involved and we're not there yet.

Tyler K. Gordon: 41:17

Everybody's involved and we're not there yet. I'm just as responsible for building Zion as you are, as my neighbor is. Honestly, it's got to start with us as members of the church. It has to start with us, and then it'll be a stone cut out of a mountain without hands and roll forth. But we've got to get started, and I think it starts with developing those Christ-like attributes.

Katie Wesley: 41:45

Sorry, what are you?

Sam Binns: 41:47

laughing about.

Katie Wesley: 41:53

I think it's so funny how you guys just finish your sentence with church stuff. What was it Like a?

Tyler K. Gordon: 41:56

hill. A stone cut out of a mountain without hands. You've never heard that like this, daniel yeah, I'm the dumb mormon remember.

Sam Binns: 42:05

No, no, no, not that we're cutting that out of the episode for sure.

Tyler K. Gordon: 42:10

No, I'm putting that as like episode header. No, I was trying so hard not to laugh?

Katie Wesley: 42:16

No, no, but you guys have done it like several episodes and I just think it's so funny. What else are we supposed to end with?

Tyler K. Gordon: 42:24

I don't know, like a normal, a normal human being sentence? Yeah, maybe, no, I don't do that oh okay, okay.

Sam Binns: 42:31

Me and Sam don't do that. That's where we're at. That's why we have you here. Oh, you're right, I'm human. You're supposed to fix us.

Katie Wesley: 42:36

Hello, I'm Katie. I'm the human.

Sam Binns: 42:38

Yeah, we want you to fix. We're the weirdos here You're the normal one.

Tyler K. Gordon: 42:43

Okay, let's. Do you have anything else?

Katie Wesley: 42:46

that you were wanting to.

Tyler K. Gordon: 42:49

I think we really hit start to wrap some things up, so I'll give some closing comments. Sam will give some closing comments. Katie, I didn't prep you for this, oh no, but I do have a question for you, okay, and I'm not gonna tell it to you until I ask the question.

Katie Wesley: 43:02

I think that's how questions go.

Tyler K. Gordon: 43:04

No, I could tell you now and you could be thinking about it.

Sam Binns: 43:07

Oh, okay, but I'm not gonna tell you it.

Tyler K. Gordon: 43:08

I'm gonna give my closing remarks, and then Sam will give his closing remarks, and then you'll give your closing remarks and then you'll answer my question.

Katie Wesley: 43:14

Now I'm scared.

Tyler K. Gordon: 43:17

Anyway, I think this has been a really good conversation. Again, I want to emphasize that this was, I think, approaching any difficult topic or conversation. It always has to come from a place of love and respect on both sides. It's a two-way street. You're not just going one way, so and approaching the conversation with just wanting to listen and hear them out. I think that's so important and I appreciate Katie you coming on the podcast and Sam you always being here to provide your insights. I think both of you have provided what's the word I'm looking for Like 50 minutes for the content, valuable insights. You've filled 50 minutes of my time. No, you've provided valuable insights and I appreciate that. And I think, as we go forth, it's more than just talking about these principles. It's applying these principles and it's doing this in our everyday lives. So and that's the hard part, but-.

Sam Binns: 44:27

And that's what hard part. But you take the time to ask sometimes difficult questions and learn before you start giving advice if they ask for it. That's, I think, where a lot of us will be starting. All of today's topic is that's probably the starting point for application.

Katie Wesley: 44:52

Yeah, for application, yeah, well. And then I am thinking of the ex-Mormons that I love and care about personally, and it's just so important for me to be able to have this kind of conversation with them. It is hard and that's what's so great about this episode because we don't have all the answers, we don't know how to answer all of their questions, and sometimes you have to change, sometimes you have to tailor what you say to the specific person you're with, and it's just it's important to understand them, to love them, to listen to them, to empathize with them too, because it's hard for them and it's hard for us, and we just have to both recognize that and to have respect for each other.

Tyler K. Gordon: 45:32

Okay, Katie, you ready for a question?

Katie Wesley: 45:35

So ready.

Tyler K. Gordon: 45:35

How have you seen the grace of God in your life?

Katie Wesley: 45:38

Okay, so I actually had the opportunity to go on a long trip with one of my best friends one of my childhood best friends, and we were backpacking Europe, which was so much fun. But we had kind of the worst luck. Like flights were canceled, we got like blisters, sunburns, ear infection, sick, all the stuff, like all of it and like, like I mentioned, we had our flight canceled and and but like through each of these bad things, we we even had like all of our flights delayed. You know, every flight was delayed. It was, it was rough, but even though everything didn't work out, it still worked out Like we didn't miss any flights. Even though everything didn't work out, it still worked out like we didn't miss any flights. Even though every flight was delayed, we always made it on time to things, even if we were like late from something else. So like I I guess it's just that's how I've seen the grace recently like like it worked out even though it didn't work out yeah, yeah, it's funny how how god will do that sometimes.

Tyler K. Gordon: 46:34

Yeah, he'll, he'll make everything work out, just though it didn't work out. Yeah, yeah, it's funny how how God will do that sometimes He'll he'll make everything work out just how it's supposed to, just so that you know you can do the things that you need to do. So, okay, kv, thank you for coming on this episode. We really appreciate it. Yeah, it's been great, it's been awesome. So I'm I'm really excited about releasing this episode and getting people's reactions to it. I think it's been great.

Tyler K. Gordon: 47:04

So, friends of the podcast, we are currently working on trying to figure out how to not lose money on this podcast. It costs money to host a podcast, to host a website, to buy equipment, things like that, and so what we've done is we've created a Patreon. What that is is you can go on to this website, which will be in the show notes, and you can donate and you'll get specific benefits from depending on how much you donate. Some of the benefits include like having your name on our website or getting some extra content during the month, or getting a shout out or a dedicated episode, or things like that. So we have a Patreon. It is live. Go ahead and check out the link in the description of the podcast and you could support us there.

Tyler K. Gordon: 47:49

The reason why we're doing a Patreon instead of running ads on the podcast is we don't want to force ads in your face, and so this is a way for if you decide you want to donate, then then you can donate, and if you decide you know what that's not for me, then you don't have to. And the nice thing about Patreon is you could even put a fake name or an anonymous name on on there if you don't want us to know who you are on there, if you don't want us to know who you are. But all of that to say, we appreciate your support and everything that you've done for us. Even just listening to the podcast, it supports us and it helps us immensely. We appreciate all of the kind texts and messages from all of you. You all have been amazing, so thank you so much.

Sam Binns: 48:41

Thank you for listening today to the From Grace to Grace podcast. We are grateful that you took the time out of your day to listen. We know the episodes are on the longer side for podcasts and we're grateful that you take the time. We hope you have a good day. We hope things go well for you and that you're able to continue feeling the love of God and to feel his grace in each day and every moment. Have a great day. Bye.