Tyler K. Gordon: 0:01

I also love in this scripture that it's using the bitter and sweet analogy because, yeah, we're here to learn the good and the evil, right, but the bitter and sweet you can only experience by having a body. It's a physical experience to know bitter and sweet.

Sam Binns: 0:22

Welcome to the From Grace to Grace podcast. Welcome to the From Grace to Grace podcast. This is going to be the mortal life episode, and we are going to be covering some of the purpose of life, what the purpose of our bodies are and why we need them, and a little bit about the doctrine of Christ, I'm sure. So it'll be some good, solid topics that will hopefully prompt you to do some good studying of your own.

Tyler K. Gordon: 0:48

It's going to be great. As I've been thinking about different podcast episodes, this one is a super interesting one because we're right in the middle of it.

Sam Binns: 0:57

So let's talk about what we're doing right now. Yeah, yeah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:00

So I think it'll be a good episode to just kind of put our mortal lives kind of in perspective. As President Nelson has said, think celestial, like yeah, what we can see right now is such a thin portion of all of eternity. But it helps to put things into perspective. So I think it'll be a good episode. My name is Tyler. I'm here with my co-host, sam. I don't know if you said our names at the top of the episode. My name is Tyler. I'm here with my co-host, sam. I don't know if you said our names at the top of the episode.

Sam Binns: 1:26

No, I didn't actually. Well, that's okay, my name's Sam. I'm here with Tyler. There we go. We're both the hosts.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:31

Yep, we do this podcast. We've been doing it for a few months now. In case you didn't know who we are, yeah, if you don't know who we are, you should go listen to the first episode. But you know, that's okay, that's possible.

Sam Binns: 1:44

Somebody could pop in onto this episode. Yeah, if you're just joining us, welcome to the new people.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:52

I guess we are excited to have you. The first episode is a really great episode and you should go listen to it, but finish listening to this episode first. Anyway, talking mortal life how is mortal life, sam? How's mortal life?

Sam Binns: 2:01

going. How's life? Yeah, it's 50% good, 50% bad, half and half actually.

Tyler K. Gordon: 2:06

Yeah, you know, that's how life is For our generation, I would say 50% is pretty good.

Sam Binns: 2:11

Oh no, I'm not talking personally, I'm just saying life in general. Oh, 50%, good 50% bad, okay, well. That's just how it is. I was just asking that than bad Okay. Well, that's just how it is. I was just asking.

Tyler K. Gordon: 2:33

I was asking you personally how is life? Life is good. Life is, I'd say, 75% good right now. Yeah, things are going pretty well. That's impressive, good. Good, I would say I'd say like 60% for me, 65, like it's not. It's not, it's not more bad than good, but it's definitely more good than bad. So you know, mortal life is mortal life. So, anyway, okay, should we just dive right in? Yep, Okay, take us away, sam. Where are we going?

Sam Binns: 2:50

So purpose of life? It's one of the questions people ask. Why am I here?

Tyler K. Gordon: 2:55

What are the questions in the missionary discussions? Where did we come from? Why am I here and where am I going? Yeah, the second big question of life is what am I doing here? What's the purpose? Am I going? That second big question of life is what am I doing here? And we titled this episode. We've got 80 years of this, which like yeah, that's true.

Sam Binns: 3:11

What's the point of those 80 years? Yes, Purpose of life, very simply stated, is for testing, growth, learning and joy. And the purpose of that testing, growth and learning is specifically to help us become like God, and the joy is the effect of that process. So we've got some scriptures to talk about with that, let's go.

Sam Binns: 3:34

So let's pull those up. Alma talks about mortal life a lot. Alma does talk about mortal life a lot. Alma's always the one that kind of gets passed over because he's in the same book, at least in the Book of Mormon that we have today he's lumped together with the four chapters, yeah. And so everybody kind of tries to skip Alma if they can for like personal reading, because they're like what am I going to get here? But you're missing a lot Alma. He goes off a lot.

Tyler K. Gordon: 4:04

He goes hard. We love ourselves a good book of Alma. Okay, let's dive into these scriptures. You have Alma 12, 24. I can read this if you'd like. And we see that death comes upon mankind. Yea, the death which has been spoken about by Amulek, which is the temporal death. Nevertheless, there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent. Therefore, this life became a probationary state, a time to prepare to meet God, a time to prepare for the endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead.

Sam Binns: 4:40

So he's just been explaining about the fall fall and he says, okay, death happens. And he says this is temporal, this is our physical death, and still we're given this time to have probation, which is basically testing, and you know, like, if you think about it in the law and people on probation, that's probably a good comparison to make. And then you have preparing to meet God, I mean.

Tyler K. Gordon: 5:13

That's my favorite. That's my favorite quote out of the scripture yeah, talk about it when I'm preparing to meet someone super important or like an interview. Right, if I have a big interview coming up, I'll try to make myself look as presentable as possible, which is a hard thing to do. But I'll think through like, okay, this is what I'm going to say, this is how I'm going to act, these are the things that I'm going to do, right, and I have to prepare and be ready in order to meet this important person or do this important interview, and so I like this idea of preparing to meet God. That's what we're doing here. We're getting clothed quote unquote in a mortal body so that we look our best and can go and meet God.

Sam Binns: 5:53

So what about the people who don't want to meet him? What if there's people who say I don't know if there is or isn't a God, but if there is, I don't want to meet him?

Tyler K. Gordon: 6:04

No, I was one of these people. In fact, my thought process was if there is a God, then he must be bad. So why would I want to meet that person? To that I'd say I think you and I might just have a fundamental different understanding of who God is. So me, talking to my past self if I can just talk to past Tyler real quick I would say I don't know that you understand God the way that I understand God. But even if you, even taking your perspective, like I get it, I understand what you're saying. But just give it some time right and just try to understand God for who he truly is. And you know it takes a lot of work to be able to know who God is.

Sam Binns: 6:48

And personally, I think the best one to find at Judgment Day would be the one we believe in.

Tyler K. Gordon: 6:55

Yeah, again, I think it can still be a scary thing. Even Latter-day Saints that I know are like I'm not ready, right, like. Either either Christ is going to show up and and be here physically or you're going to be called up to go meet Christ right, like, like, and that could happen right now, that could happen in five seconds, in 20 years, in 30 years, in 80 years. It can happen at any time. But what I'm saying is there are lots of people who are like I'm not ready, and to that I'd say are you ever?

Sam Binns: 7:31

going to be ready, because I don't know that I'm ever going to be ready to like Define ready. Are you defining ready, as I am free of all sin whatsoever and I'm completely perfect?

Tyler K. Gordon: 7:39

And I guess that's what I'm saying. Right Is like that's how a lot of people would define right of like perfection, and it's like ah, I hate to break it to you on that day that you're going to meet God. I don't know the whole aspect of everything that's going to happen, but I would just say be a little bit more patient with yourself.

Sam Binns: 7:57

And I think for me, what helps me understand it a little bit better too, is the justification and sanctification side of things. The justification will all be complete by the judgment, but the sanctification that doesn't have to happen before the judgment. In fact, I feel like it would be. What's the purpose of after judgment if we're not also taking some time to continue becoming like God?

Tyler K. Gordon: 8:26

I would just say be a little bit more patient with yourself and understand that, like I don't know me personally, I don't think I'm ever going to be like I'm ready to go, like this is my time, like I feel like I'm like okay, wait, hold up.

Tyler K. Gordon: 8:41

I have this small thing that I need to prepare for myself, like, oh, I'm like, okay, wait, hold up. I have this small thing that I need to prepare for myself, like, oh, I'm still a little bit selfish in this area, so I don't know. You can always, always, always prepare more. So you know, I think just as long as we are in the act of preparing, that's what God wants, yeah.

Sam Binns: 9:01

And how on earth could we prepare if we didn't have moral agency? So this next scripture in Doctrine and Covenants, 29, 39, it says and it must needs be, that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves, for if they never should have bitter, they could not know the sweet. We agreed in premortal life that we would come to a place with agency and moral agency specifically to choose good and evil. And the atonement was always the plan because we knew we would make bad choices as well. And this is saying the devil's going to tempt us and the only way for us to progress in this life is to know the difference between the two. Because if you think about a child who doesn't know between good and evil, they're not really understanding or progressing in their growth of understanding morals and understanding how to treat others and things like that. If they don't know what's good and what's bad, anything they do is just neutral to them. They're just doing what feels right in the moment or what their instincts are.

Tyler K. Gordon: 10:20

I also love in this scripture that it's using the bitter and sweet analogy, because, yeah, we're here to learn the good and the evil, right, but the bitter and sweet you can only experience by having a body. It's a physical experience to know bitter and sweet. I just love that it uses this bitter and this sweet analogy, because you have to go through this mortal state to be able to experience that. The atonement allows those bitter things one to maybe be a little bit less bitter, but two, in retrospect those bitter things can become almost sweet because you can take the good things that you learned out of them and leave the bitter parts behind. So let's head over to Alma 34. And leave the bitter parts behind. So let's head over to Alma 34.

Sam Binns: 11:05

This will bring us towards the doctrine of Christ. He's talking about how he wants us to. So this is Alma 34, 33. And he says I beseech of you that you do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end, for after this day of life which is given us to sounds like what Christ is saying when he says I think he has a specific verse that talks about saying. When he says I think he has a specific verse that talks about then, the night cometh, wherein man can do no work. I want to find that verse. Can we find that?

Tyler K. Gordon: 11:51

Yeah, okay, john 9, 4. Yeah, yeah, so. Oh, I was just going to read this verse for you, Okay, so, john 9, 4,. This is the verse that Sam's talking about. It says I must work the works of him that sent me. While it is day, the night cometh when no man can work.

Sam Binns: 12:12

I like similar language like that and it makes me kind of grateful that the language Joseph chose to use was 18th century King James language for the Book of Mormon. So it helps for connections between the two, which is why we still have it in that language, because and same with Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. They're all in that similar language to help us make connections. That'll help us understand God better.

Tyler K. Gordon: 12:39

Yeah, yeah, I like that too, and it also just makes it a lot easier just to like, if you're reading one like New Testament, you're switching over to Book of Mormon year. It's not like this, like culture shock of like okay, I'm reading, like I'm reading this new use of language and then all of a sudden having to go back to King James version or vice versa. Right Like it.

Sam Binns: 13:00

It allows for consistency across the standard work, so I like that too, except for I'm slowly starting to not enjoy King James Version of the Bible, so I'm going to start reading some other versions as well.

Tyler K. Gordon: 13:12

Sure, I think that there is utilization in reading other versions, because you can get different meanings, but the core is still there, right? I just think that it's important. It gives us a standard right. They just think that it's important, you know, it gives us a standard right. They're called the standard works because they're standard for everyone. It just gives us a similar talking point. But I do think that there is utilization in different translations.

Sam Binns: 13:35

So back to the Alma 34, 33, repenting before we leave this life. This life is the time that we're supposed to use to improve and to make changes in our nature, through Christ. What this brings to mind immediately for me is the people who don't get that chance, the people who die before they're 40. The people who die before they're 30 or 10. Things like that. Can you explain that to me, as though I did not already know the answer? What about the people who die?

Tyler K. Gordon: 14:08

Yeah, and it's well, and I think it comes back to like this preparing to meet God right, Like I fundamentally believe that no one is going to feel like they're prepared to meet God, and I think that I love the gospel of Jesus Christ because we have this belief system that allows to show that those people who die prematurely or don't have a chance to experience life will be judged based off of the knowledge that they did have or what they did go through or what they are able to go through in this next life. The important thing is getting the physical body, which is why we're here. Right Is to get this physical body, and there's more to that.

Sam Binns: 15:10

And I think what you highlighted there of everybody's going to be judged differently for what they understood and what they didn't understand. I think, in our standardized testing world that we live in, we need to remove the standardized testing thinking and remember that this isn't a standard test for all across the board. This is going to be an individual thing per person. The commandments are very similar for every single person, but the understanding of one person of one commandment could be completely different from someone for another, so there's going to be nuances that are so, so varied, and only a perfect person, jesus Christ, would be able to ferret all of them out and give a fair judgment. Bodies let's talk about bodies.

Tyler K. Gordon: 16:03

We just kind of talked about them, right, like, the purpose of coming to this life is is to get that physical state, the second estate, and again, we're going to talk more about this in the doctrine of jesus christ. But in order to be able to perform and be a part of these ordinances, you have to have this physical state, which which is great and also you get to learn how to control a body, which is, like I'm so clumsy that I'm still learning how to not drop things I think that's part of the test as well is like I don't know how often do you bump into a table or stub your toe, because I do it all the time.

Sam Binns: 16:44

I think I've been told once or twice that the part of the purpose of gaining a body and the test of the body is that we're learning to have our spirit be in control of our body and not our body be in control of our spirit Kind of sounds weird because it sounds like the body has the mind of its own. Really it doesn't. It's more of just the difference between the natural man and the spiritual man, the Christ-like person.

Tyler K. Gordon: 17:13

I love the statement of we're not mortals having a spiritual experience. We're spiritual beings having a mortal experience, and I think it's also important to remember that in the church we do this stark difference of the body, the natural man, is this terrible, awful thing and we need to shed and it's like. No, we need our bodies and, honestly, we need to nurture the natural man to come to a point where we're able to explain to the natural man this animal instinct of like hey, I know you want to do this thing. I know you want to eat 100 pounds of chocolate right now. I understand that, I get that and it makes sense why you would want to do that. But we're not going to do that and I'm still learning how to tell my body that 100 pounds of chocolate is not the appropriate thing right now.

Tyler K. Gordon: 18:02

We might need an orange or an apple. Chocolate is not the appropriate thing right now. We might need an orange or an apple. But again, I agree that we're learning to nurture ourselves to a point where it's not a war within ourselves but rather a negotiation of like hey, listen, I understand you want to do this thing. Let me explain to you why it's a bad thing.

Sam Binns: 18:21

It's like somebody training a horse per se. Yes, why it's a bad thing? It's like somebody training a horse per se. Yes, they have to find spots where they're going to tame the horse when it's bucking. They have to find a way to balance its diet from, instead of just eating all of what it wants to eat.

Tyler K. Gordon: 18:37

But the horse isn't fundamentally bad. We're like natural man, bad, awful. Which the natural man can be awful. I'm not going to pretend, but our bodies, who is kind of this synonymous thing with the natural man is a good thing, right, the horse in this analogy is a good thing. We want to nurture the horse because that's what enables us to do cool things.

Sam Binns: 19:02

And in the probably about 1000 AD era, that would be a concept that they would find objectionable. To say anything good about the body itself. Hellenized Christianity, with the ideas of Plato coming into Christianity, is part of what brings that idea of the body is a bad thing. We want to be separated from our bodies. We want to, and so that's something that I'm also grateful for in the Restoration that we get a better view of. Why do we have our bodies if they're so bad? Right, why did Christ redeem his body?

Tyler K. Gordon: 19:42

Yeah, I think it just comes to the question of why do we have these bodies? And again it comes back to so that we can tame them.

Sam Binns: 19:49

So In our mortal life we have a lot of nature, nurture, things that are building us into the people that we become, and I think this is just kind of this will be a plug, I guess, for the power of prophets leading us nowadays. I think thank goodness that we have prophets With only scriptures. We don't get guidance on how do you deal with a phone if you're living in the modern world. You can't find that in the Bible. How do you handle all of the challenges that come today and no other era? That's not going to be in the Bible, that's not going to be in the Book of Mormon.

Tyler K. Gordon: 20:38

I agree there are good analogies in there, but it's not going to be one for one. And so that's why modern prophets and apostles are so important.

Sam Binns: 20:46

Because they're sitting there watching what's happening and they are then given the inspiration to say what is needful for the time being, or for the next 20 years, or for the next 10 years.

Tyler K. Gordon: 21:00

Well and not going to lie, if I didn't believe in modern prophets and apostles, I would feel kind of a little bit forgotten about, like wait, why did they get prophets, and why am I not? I'm, I'm just as important, come on so.

Sam Binns: 21:18

God doesn't play favorites.

Tyler K. Gordon: 21:19

Yes, and so that's why I love. I love that we have modern prophets and apostles and I love that you put this point in here is like they help us navigate the modern world, because the modern world is confusing. It's so difficult to be like, okay, like what, how? And again, you can do it. It's something you can do. But I just appreciate having someone be like, hey, maybe don't be addicted to your phone, and I'm like, oh no, that's a good idea. I love that.

Sam Binns: 21:46

I think that's where people can get a little worried. Sometimes they're like why does it seem like there's not a whole bunch of scripture coming around for nowadays? They're like why does it seem like there's not a whole bunch of scripture coming around for nowadays? And it's like okay, first off, joseph Smith was setting up an entire church. These prophets are here to help perfect the saints, more so than they are to set up a church. The revelation is there's a different purpose to the revelation that they are receiving, and I think that it's important to remember that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 22:23

I'd also just say expand your definition of scripture, because I would argue that scripture comes from prophets and apostles and it sounds different. And it looks different, but you can take that in as teachings from a prophet or an apostle right, or teachings from the Lord. I do believe that they speak with the Lord and they're getting this revelation from him to speak to us about. And so I would just say, maybe expand your definition of scripture a little bit further and and that's the critical pitfall.

Sam Binns: 22:50

if somebody's saying why are we not getting more scripture? We get more every single conference, every single time that they speak really, and sometimes their scripture that they're speaking is for a ward alone, and sometimes it's for the security guard that they speak to as they're walking out of their office, or sometimes it's in general conference the entire world. Sometimes it's in general conference, the entire world. So the difference is what's going to be canonized, what's going to go in the standard works or what's going to be something that is archived in teachings of the presidents, or what's going to be something that is referred to in a talk by Bruce R McConkie.

Tyler K. Gordon: 23:35

years and years down the road, right, it's still scripture yeah, yeah, I agree, you want to move us forward.

Sam Binns: 23:42

How about you? Oh, I'm moving us forward, you get the help.

Tyler K. Gordon: 23:45

Okay, all right, one sec. Let me read your next bullet point. God influences us very rarely. Maybe, I guess Much more of his work is done by influencing us to do good to others.

Sam Binns: 24:02

So God's not sitting there changing a circumstance physically so that somebody can?

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:09

So, would you say, the miracles of the Old Testament have stopped.

Sam Binns: 24:12

Then Personally, I feel like those are not as common anymore.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:19

I don't know. I don't know.

Sam Binns: 24:21

I think we've had this conversation before too as well. Maybe we started it.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:25

Yeah, we have started this conversation before, but I would say the miracles of the Old Testament still happen today. They just again. I don't have any that I can point to in my personal life that I was like God caused the Red Sea to part for me and I walked through on dry ground right, or there was a pillar of fire that led me through the desert. I can't say those things, but what I can say is like there are natural phenomena that like happen, that are like unexplainable, if that makes sense, and I do believe that that could be God's hand in people's lives.

Tyler K. Gordon: 25:04

Do you have an example? I don't, and that's the problem, I'd have to think more about it. But like I do believe that there are natural things that happen that it's like only God could have done that, or even coincidences that are like again, you could be like, yeah, it's just a coincidence, or it could be the hand of God. I mean like again, you can look at those things, and so I don't know. I would argue that the God of the Old Testament is the same yesterday and today and forever. And so I'm going to argue his miracles are the same yesterday, today and forever.

Tyler K. Gordon: 25:40

And you could make the argument yes, they just look different, which is fine, right, you could, that's basically what I'm saying what you're saying, God creates miracles through us, which is like kind of a profound and humbling thing to think about, because it's like, oh, I'm supposed to be performing miracles on like and God can work through me in that way.

Sam Binns: 26:05

So, anyway, I've been rambling, but we can dive more into this if you want. I think it's just for the mortal life aspect of things, I think. How much influence does God have in our life? Right, has he put us here and said here's the words I'm going to give you, but aside from that, I've set things in nature into order. Everything's going the way it's supposed to. You guys can mess up the world all you want.

Sam Binns: 26:30

Christ will be back soon, but the idea, idea, is how much influence does he really have over the world, or choose to have over the world? He has all the influence. That's not something I'm trying to debate, sure, but he. How much does he choose to do? Because he tries, because he values agency, right? And if there were just miracles like the Old Testament happening in front of people's eyes all the time, the entire world would be converted, or at least to the miracles and to those specific things, and they would be at least convinced of the existence of God, which isn't that a good thing, right? Or is he saying I'm going to sit back and let things play out the way they need to, other than influencing those who will listen to me, and that's going to be the way I get my work done.

Tyler K. Gordon: 27:23

I would say that the miracles are like miracles, like Joseph Smith praying and God, the Father and Jesus Christ showing up. I'd say that's a miracle, but not everybody believes that. I think that there are miracles that happen today, but I don't know that one, maybe people don't talk about it. Or two, like it's just a situation that happens. I believe fully and this is Tyler doctrine, because I know you disagree with this but I believe that God is deep down, even in the minute details of our lives, every single aspect of our lives not only does he know about but he cares about, because that's just the God that he is, in my opinion, and so yeah, like those, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that idea, but it's more of like physically affecting the world.

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:15

Yes, and my, but it's more of like physically affecting the world.

Sam Binns: 28:17

Yes, and, and my I think that the five senses can, can, can measure.

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:22

Sure, and I'm split on this. Right, because I do believe God works through the natural environment. Right, I believe that he works through. But again, what does it mean to like, physically do something or cause something naturally to happen? Right, like, if God was like. So, like, where is the split between? Because what if happenstance happens? And like, a bunch of rocks fall in the Nile river and it, it dams up the river and and all of a sudden the Nile river is, is dry, right, like, but like, because we have so much technology we can know, like, oh well, these rocks fell upstream and that's what caused the Nile to become dry. But people, if they didn't have the technology down the stream from that would be like, what is this miracle that's happening or this plague that's happening? Again, I believe God works through natural resources, but anyway, I don't know.

Sam Binns: 29:19

And the reason we're having this discussion is talking about mortal life. Right, we're trying to see how much influence does God have over our lives that we he's given us here, how much or choose to have again, I should probably preface it with that choose to have over our lives.

Tyler K. Gordon: 29:36

And I think it just comes down to well one I'm going to make the argument of it doesn't super matter because God is there and he does care, and so like, is it just a natural thing that happens, or was it God directly? Does it matter? Probably not.

Sam Binns: 29:55

And, to be honest, if someone wants to choose to believe that God did something that he didn't, isn't that still a good thing, that they're choosing to believe in God?

Tyler K. Gordon: 30:04

Well, I mean unless they're choosing to believe that God did something like awful. Yeah, yeah so like faith, building things Sure, and I agree with that. And ultimately, at the end of the day, if you're like me, who's like God, is in the minute details and does affect things, or if you're like Sam and believe that he's more hands-off, then that's fine, right? I think that's all good. Interesting that you chose me to spearhead that point.

Sam Binns: 30:34

I just wanted to see what your reaction would be. Yeah, make me squirm a little bit then, what do we do with our time here on this earth right, and what's the specific things that we're supposed to be doing to overcome mistakes and to become more like God? What are the steps?

Tyler K. Gordon: 30:54

Yeah, you're talking about the doctrine of Christ.

Sam Binns: 30:57

Here we go, I am.

Tyler K. Gordon: 30:58

This is the segue. We believe in the fourth article of faith, which is faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, and one thing that isn't mentioned in the fourth article of faith is endure to the end. These five steps lead us to Jesus Christ ultimately, and lead us back to God.

Sam Binns: 31:17

The doctrine of Christ is the. I'd say we'll put it this way it's the required points in our journey, and you could replace that with the covenant path to be changed by his atonement, since he can't change anything about us unless we use our free will to let him do it or to let him in to help us. So he's knocking on the door and the way we open the locks on the door is, like you can imagine, with separate keyholes, but then of course, that minimizes the continual nature of faith and repentance and renewal of covenants.

Tyler K. Gordon: 32:00

So maybe we'll hold back on the key analogy. You could say like it's one of those automatic closing doors, right Like? If you don't keep the door open, it closes on its own and you might have to reopen the door again and again because you know the door is closing. And sometimes you're like, oh, I have the lasagna in the oven, I've got to go pull that out because that's more important than me talking with Jesus Christ right now. Right Like, you have to continually be having that door open.

Sam Binns: 32:30

So no, I don't-.

Tyler K. Gordon: 32:31

There's some analogies we can work out.

Sam Binns: 32:33

Let's hammer those out at another date.

Tyler K. Gordon: 32:36

Yeah, no, the doctrine of Christ is fundamental, and specifically the baptism is the third step faith repentance. But baptism, we believe in our theology, is a physical event, and you have to physically be immersed in water, and so that's why it's so important that we have a body in order to do that. Gift of the Holy Ghost is also another kind of physical event that has to happen. Enduring to the end is, like you know, kind of something that we do the whole rest of the time. So two out of those five, nearly 50% of the doctrine of Christ, requires you to have some sort of physical state.

Sam Binns: 33:15

Mm-hmm. Well, and you could make the argument for repentance too, depending on what kinds of sins you're repenting for, and things like that. Sure, sure.

Tyler K. Gordon: 33:23

Well, and even just getting up, the act of getting on your knees is this reminder of, like, why we're here. Right, getting on your knees to pray to God is another reminder and a physical. You don't have to have a physical because I do believe that you can still repent in the next life. Right, like that's taught. But, like you know, I think it's a good reminder.

Sam Binns: 33:48

And you don't have to kneel down to repent. No, no, let's make that clear.

Tyler K. Gordon: 33:52

That's true, but I do think that, like when you are in this repentance process, kneeling isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Sam Binns: 34:00

Yeah, it's a great suggestion.

Tyler K. Gordon: 34:02

Ah, thank you. Yes, I'm full of those.

Sam Binns: 34:10

Faith in Jesus Christ is. We've discussed, I think, some of the definition for faith before, but trust in God and acting on your hope. Acting on your hope that's the way I like to understand it is. Acting on your hope is how you know how much faith you have. If you're acting on your hope in God enough to pray, you have enough faith to pray. If you're acting on your hope that a commandment will work and you're keeping a commandment, you have enough faith to keep a commandment. And so that's just my way of measuring, I guess, and a weird thing to measure.

Tyler K. Gordon: 34:45

No, I think that's good. I think it's good to recognize that. I think oftentimes we get scared to pray because we're like do I have enough faith to talk to God himself? That's a scary thing and I get that. But if you have the hope enough, you have the faith right, you have enough faith. And I think it comes back to also do you have enough faith right, like you have enough faith. And I think it comes back to also, like do you have enough faith to be healed? Do you have enough faith not to be healed? And if you have enough faith not to be healed, then you have enough faith.

Sam Binns: 35:13

Like I think that's yeah, and it's specifically in the doctrine of Christ. It's faith in Jesus Christ and His atonement and who he is.

Tyler K. Gordon: 35:25

I think it's important to recognize that all of these steps faith, repentance, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end all revolve around Jesus Christ. However, you can replace Jesus Christ with something else. You could have faith in something that you're addicted to right and you could start to immerse yourself in that right and you could start to believe those things. So, just because these steps revolve around Jesus Christ, you can replace Jesus Christ. Not that that's a suggestion. In fact, I would encourage you not to do that but that's what we do is we have faith in our cell phones to bring us joy, and so we start to forsake other things in order to be more immersed in our cell phones and then we really devote ourselves to that. And so, in order to get out of that, you kind of have to do the reverse process and then put Jesus Christ in the center and then follow the steps of faith, repentance, baptism, get to the Holy Ghost and enduring to the end.

Sam Binns: 36:19

Talk to us about repentance.

Tyler K. Gordon: 36:20

Repentance. Oh yeah, this is a big one, right, talk to us all. Good, but it's like but what about after that? And you do something, and then you have to repent again, and you have to keep repenting.

Sam Binns: 36:51

Are your beliefs about yourself different?

Tyler K. Gordon: 36:54

Yeah, and I think that's are you changing, and I think that's what repentance is. Is the changing? Because you can go through the steps of repentance and not change, and I would argue that's not repentance, that isn't. So I think it's a changing process. So I don't know.

Sam Binns: 37:12

Those are my thoughts on it. Yeah, and those steps, they have their purpose. Those are the recommendations that we're given and the steps we're talking about. People growing up in the church will know about this. People outside of the church won't. There's usually a list of steps that we've been taught as we're growing up of pray and to like forsaking sins and confessing sins, things like that. Praying to confess your sins to God, things like that. That list of steps is useful for people who don't necessarily know how to go about it, but as soon as somebody figures out what their connection is to God, the process can look a little different.

Tyler K. Gordon: 37:53

Well, and I think also, it's important to recognize that repentance isn't about like oh, can I be forgiven of the sin? It's a repairing of a relationship that's been broken right. It's a repairing, it's making your relationship right with God. And so I think that the process of repentance is necessarily you need to change, because I don't know, like if, sam, if you wronged me in some way, and then you were like hey, I'm really sorry, but tomorrow I'm going to do the same thing, I'm going to be like well, we're not good then we have a problem that's problematic and kind of toxic.

Tyler K. Gordon: 38:30

And again, I'm not saying you can't be forgiven of the same sin multiple times, because I've definitely fallen into that trap, but what I'm saying is the idea of repentance isn't about okay, I need to be forgiven of this one thing, and instead is I need to right this relationship.

Sam Binns: 38:42

And that's what repentance really is about is reestablishing the trust relationship that you have with God, rather than making up for a sin, because the making up for the sin is done by Christ. The repairing of the relationship is something that can only be done between you and God.

Tyler K. Gordon: 38:59

Amen. I also love the doctrine that we have of God once he forgives you, is able to just let it go right. He is perfect in this idea of I remember it no more and you remember it because I don't want you to do it again. But God forgives you, I just love that part of repentance. So, like God forgives you, I just love that part of repentance. So, anyway, Baptism, baptism.

Sam Binns: 39:32

We're sometimes taught growing up that it's a washing away of your sins, which has symbolic meaning to help for the little kiddos who are learning when they're growing up.

Tyler K. Gordon: 39:38

Or even for me. I think it's good, okay, fine For everyone. I think it's good, yeah, okay, fine for everyone.

Sam Binns: 39:42

But the purpose of the baptism really is submitting your will to God and making that covenant relationship with him begin, and it's starting that path. That's the gate you know I'll just insert here. If you want to just skip the whole baptism and confirmation portion and just go read in 2 Nephi 31, you might as well just do that as well, because Nephi will explain this way better than we will.

Tyler K. Gordon: 40:18

Agreed, use your body to be immersed in water. But you kind of do this thing that's like or at least in our faith like you can't do it on your own right, like if I were to like fall backwards that far I would just fall. And so you need the grace of Jesus Christ to bring you back up out of the water in this new state. Yeah, symbolically, you need the help of someone else literally to bring yourself up out of the water, because you need his grace. And that's the relationship that you have, is you're willing to go and be buried in the water and his grace is sufficient to bring you up out of the water, that symbolism of death of the old man and the coming up of the new.

Sam Binns: 41:04

Can we pull that up?

Tyler K. Gordon: 41:05

Yeah.

Sam Binns: 41:05

I want to read those. I feel like it's Romans.

Tyler K. Gordon: 41:08

It's probably Romans. Everything good comes from Romans. Honestly, yeah, that's it Is it. Yeah, ah, we found it. You were right, it was in Romans 6, 4. Yep there it is.

Sam Binns: 41:21

Okay, so these are the verses that I'm talking about.

Tyler K. Gordon: 41:23

Go ahead and give us like an intro into the verses.

Sam Binns: 41:26

So there's some verses in the New Testament that talk about some of the symbolism behind baptism, and that's what Tyler was just barely alluding to is he Is this Paul? This is Paul. This is Paul. Yes, is this Paul? This is Paul. This is Paul. Yes, paul is telling us here. He says, therefore, we are buried with him by baptism into death that, like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in a newness of life. That's such a beautiful picture from Paul. I love some of the writings of Paul. He gives you such good imagery for different doctrines and just ways of understanding things that make so much sense.

Tyler K. Gordon: 42:08

He's very much a logical. I can see why you would be like Paul. Me and Paul would be buddies you see, I'm more of like oh Luke is so good at describing the gospel and he gets to the heart of it and all these things. He's very much a poetic, more kind of guy, and so you know I can see where Paul would be your man. So I, yeah, he's a good guy. I love the writings of Paul, but you know we all have our favorites.

Sam Binns: 42:37

So verse five, for if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. So again, more imagery of the resurrection is used as this the baptism is the type of the resurrection, in a symbolic sense of you're putting away the natural man in covenant to replace that with a spiritual man, a spiritual woman.

Tyler K. Gordon: 43:06

Should we talk about the Holy Ghost? I love the Holy Ghost. He just brings me a lot of comfort, which you know. Comforter is one of his titles, so that's good. The gift of the Holy Ghost is given right after baptism, done through the laying on of hands. So people lay their hands upon someone's head and gives the gift of the Holy Ghost, and it's a really powerful thing, even though it's a short. It's a very short couple of words.

Sam Binns: 43:34

And what happens in those short couple of words is a covenant is made where you're giving over your essentially consent to the Holy Ghost to help sanctify you, to help cleanse you and to be there constantly prodding at you, helping you become better and better. So it's essentially a and this is, I think Joseph Smith said baptism by water is only half a baptism if you don't have the Holy Ghost.

Tyler K. Gordon: 44:02

You might as well be baptizing a bag of sand. Do you have anything else on the Holy Ghost?

Sam Binns: 44:08

I was hoping you would have more.

Tyler K. Gordon: 44:09

Ah, I'm sure I do. Let me think I've already talked about my love for the Holy Ghost. The other thing that we believe this is potentially unique. This is unique Latter-day Saint doctrine, but we believe that the Holy Ghost is part of the Godhead and is a personage of spirit. So when we refer to the Holy Ghost, we'll use terms that are unique to a person right, I've been saying he this whole time, because we know from Revelation that he is a personage of spirit and we don't know a whole lot about him himself other than he's a member of the Godhead and they're three distinct beings. So there's this unique doctrine from our theology about that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 44:54

But there probably isn't a ton to talk about here, just because the Holy Ghost, honestly, in my opinion, is very much an experiential thing that you go through right, like all of the feelings and all of these promptings are coming through the Holy Ghost unto us and it's kind of hard for me to explain personally of like, oh yeah, the Holy Ghost works in X, Y and Z fashion and you'll get revelation this way. It's very much a no, you have to experience it yourself.

Sam Binns: 45:22

There's lots and lots of talks that you'll find in general conference where somebody else is say that the Spirit speaks this way, this way, this way, this way. There's so many ways that you'll hear that I think you really need to figure out. What is it that God is communicating to you through? Is it your mind? Is he talking to you more through your logic and through your reasoning? Is he talking to you more through your heart, your emotions? Is he talking to you through different means? Right, Music, things like that. There's all kinds of ways and facets.

Tyler K. Gordon: 46:00

And God doesn't just speak to you in one way, in my opinion right, he will speak to you through multiple different means. You may feel his presence through a specific way more frequently, just because of who you are and your makeup of who you are, but I do believe that he speaks to you in multiple ways. Part of this mortal life is also tuning in to how God might be speaking to me, and it might be in a way that's counterintuitive to how I think or feel. So I think that's also another taming of the natural man is tuning our radio frequencies to hear God.

Sam Binns: 46:37

Enduring to the end is the last portion, which is the hardest, in my opinion.

Tyler K. Gordon: 46:42

Repentance is sometimes hard, but enduring to the end encompasses basically all of the things we've talked about and been like, okay, just keep doing those things, considering it a spiritual helix where you're consistently going up and some people will say, oh, it's just an endless circle and you're not really getting anywhere.

Sam Binns: 47:07

But no, you're going up, you're making progress every time. You continue that cycle. And so I think each time you go through the process of building more faith, of repenting and changing more, more faith, of repenting and changing more, and of renewing those covenants and continuing to live those covenants, it makes a difference in who you are, and that's because of Jesus Christ.

Tyler K. Gordon: 47:35

That's why I think spiritual journaling is such an important thing, because you might seem like, oh, I'm right back to where I started a year ago.

Tyler K. Gordon: 47:45

That's what Satan wants you to think, yes, if you spiritually journal, you will see this upward momentum of, yeah, you're back to the faith step, but you're up here instead of down here. And so there's this spiritual momentum that you're gaining as you're traveling upwards and through the repentance or the faith process. So you know, enduring to the end, especially as a young, single adult, seems to be almost the worst, because it's like I have 80 years of this enduring, like I don't know that I can make it that long. But with Jesus Christ you can. You can do anything.

Sam Binns: 48:25

So, after baptism and confirmation, those covenants that are made, the next ones occur in the temple. Those ones are very sacred covenants. They're a spot in our lives where we're.

Tyler K. Gordon: 48:40

They're a spot in our lives where we're starting to covenant more than what we're covenanting at baptism and through the confirmation we're giving more of ourselves and more of ourselves as we make those covenants, and the temple is that special place that we're given to do so. Yeah, as Sam stated, the temple is obviously a very sacred aspect of the Latter-day Saint religion and I personally love the temple, and I've come to learn to love the temple even more after having come back. But as we kind of go into the temple and make sacred covenants with God, a lot of it overlaps with those covenants that are made during baptism, such as faith and repentance being sacrifice, and obedience.

Sam Binns: 49:32

Essentially, the temple is extension covenants to baptism and confirmation.

Tyler K. Gordon: 49:38

And so you learn about these covenants and they're very similar. You know, consecrating yourself is very similar to enduring to the end. There's a lot of similarities that you can find between temple covenants and those covenants that we make during baptism. Okay, Any other thoughts in general about Mortal Life episode? Any calls to action?

Sam Binns: 49:59

Mortal Life is difficult, but it's not meant to be walked alone. We definitely need more practice getting outside of ourselves and being with others and helping others and finding ways to serve others, because that's part of what's going to bring us joy in this life is serving others, taking that role of a servant.

Tyler K. Gordon: 50:25

It comes back to the first and second great commandments right, the first commandment. And it comes back to taking up our cross. The first commandment is a vertical cross beam with God we have to have a right relationship with God but the second commandment is a horizontal cross beam with our fellow man, and we need both of those in order to become like Jesus Christ, become like God. And so we need to continually be feeding our relationship with God during this mortal life, when we're the furthest from him we've ever been, and also continually be feeding our relationship with our fellow man, repenting in that sense, coming unto our fellow man and woman and saying like, hey, you know what I messed up, I'm sorry, and righting the wrongs there and allowing other people to do the same. I think oftentimes we're like, oh, I need to repent and say sorry to this other person, but that person wronged me, so no way I'm going to let them to repent. And it's like that's also part of the repentance process as well is giving forgiveness.

Sam Binns: 51:27

And I think it's so liberating, too, to when you give someone the leeway to repent and you see them actually do it, you can rejoice with them, rather than have Elder Holland said in conference you're drinking another jar of pickle juice every time someone has a good moment, when you're jealous. And so I think that's what's really happening when you're not allowing someone else to repent is you're being jealous that they're making progress.

Tyler K. Gordon: 52:00

And so maybe that's our call to action for the day is hey, maybe, maybe just try to find places in your life where maybe you need to do better with your fellow man, but also like find places in your life where you're preventing people from from repenting socially socially right.

Tyler K. Gordon: 52:15

We're talking. We're talking in a social sense, but again, like that's still super important, it's the second great commandment. Thank you all so much for listening to the From Grace to Grace podcast. We appreciate you being here, something that we would encourage you to do. Right now, 63% of you are not following the podcast. Who listen? So you should definitely click the little check box, or whatever it may be, on your favorite podcasting app and follow us. It helps us out a ton and make sure that you're just, you know, keeping up with the episodes. We appreciate all of the support and all of the kind messages we get about the podcast. You all have been phenomenal. We have been just so grateful for everything that you've been doing to support the podcast. So thank you so much again for listening and we will catch you in the next episode. Bye.