Tyler K. Gordon: 0:01

it's tough. It's tough and I get it in a sense I've been through hard things. Sam gets it in a sense. He's been through hard things, but we haven't been through what you're going through specifically. The only person who's done that is Christ, and as you turn to him you will start to see how he is able to potentially deliver you, but even more potentially just come and sit with you and just listen and just cry with you. Sometimes you just need a good cry.

Sam Binns: 0:35

Welcome to the From Grace to Grace podcast. Today's episode is Man's Genesis, adam and Eve and the Garden of Choices. This is going to be discussing some things about creation, adam and Eve and the idea of moral agency as opposed to regular agency, so we'll get into that. But we're grateful you're here and we hope you enjoy the episode today.

Tyler K. Gordon: 0:57

I'm excited to be here. I love our doctrine episodes. Right, that's what this episode is specifically today is a doctrinally-based episode, and it's so great that we're going through the plan of salvation as our first set of doctrinal episodes. I put quotations. The plan of salvation is so foundational. The first lesson that the missionaries teach is first vision, and then the very next lesson is plan of salvation. Salvation because it teaches us who we are, why we're here and where we're going like the three most important questions in our life and we get to learn a little bit of why we're here today.

Sam Binns: 1:37

I think that that lesson was always more interesting to teach on the mission, just because the other stuff was discussing the lead up to the restoration. But none of that really matters if they're not Christian, so it's like, okay, this might need to be adjusted.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:55

The reason why we have the knowledge of the plan of salvation is because of the restoration, but the restoration was brought forth to reveal the plan of salvation. Right, we are all here and doing what we do because of the plan of salvation. So, anyway, I love the plan of salvation. I'm glad that we're talking about it. I'm excited about today's episode because I think today's episode has some tricky topics. Tricky topics. Tricky topics this idea of and we can talk about this this idea of, ultimately, that quote-unquote original sin and did God force that? This idea of where does this evil come from? Right, where does evil stem from?

Sam Binns: 2:37

Because, if God created all things, that's going to be fun to get into. The problem of evil is probably my favorite topic in terms of the philosophy of the church. It's probably my favorite topic to talk about, just because of how wonderful it is to know that we actually have the answer to it.

Tyler K. Gordon: 2:57

Sure, and I love that, to be honest, in this episode. So the reason why we started this podcast is because we originally we had a debate one time about something else that we can get into on another day, but we we got into a debate and that's why I originally was like this podcast is going to be a great podcast and I think I feel like today there are going to be topics that we're going to get into that you're like.

Sam Binns: 3:22

Hold on.

Tyler K. Gordon: 3:22

Hold on, no into that we just don't agree on, and I'm excited about that, right. So anyway, okay.

Sam Binns: 3:29

So to start out, I want to kind of bring up some of our source texts that we're going to be using. And it's interesting because for the creation and for the Adam and Eve story that we're all familiar with, there's about five tellings, five stories of it in the church, and part of this comes from looking at biblical scholars and what they say about Genesis. But then of course, the others just are extra scripture that we have. So the first one, the first account of the creation, is in Genesis, 1 to 2, verse 3. The second one is from chapter 2, verses 4 to 25. And then the third is Abraham, 5. The fourth is Moses, 2. And then, of course, the temple is that fifth one.

Tyler K. Gordon: 4:22

I like myself some good Moses you know, I think they're all problematic, oh, problematic they're all problematic. Oh man, this is wow this is juicy, juicy gossip here, yeah it's it's.

Sam Binns: 4:37

They're all good in terms of like the purpose, of why we have them, but in trying to understand it the way that members try to understand it today, there's some serious issues.

Tyler K. Gordon: 4:48

Yes, for sure. Well, and I think again, when you take an eye of not a spiritual eye to it right, and you take a scientific eye or just a human eye to the text, you're going to miss it, You're going to miss the whole point. And so, yes, I agree, the way that I think most Christians come at this story, it's not just membership of the church although we're included in that I think it's got to come from a spiritual place. A spiritual reading of the text. It's more than just the words on the page, it's the spirit whispering to you the truths that you're supposed to get from those words.

Sam Binns: 5:33

Things like I am created in the image of God, which is something we'll get into, right. So, to start off, I guess there's problems in the texts. What do I mean by that, right? I'd say? First and foremost, the wrong cosmology that we see is one that I think is pretty easy to point out If you look through Genesis.

Sam Binns: 5:56

There's a portion in Genesis 1 that says and God said Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. And God called the firmament heaven, and the evening and the morning were the second day. So two things here. One, you've got this firmament, which is essentially like the glass on a snow globe that's being created here and that's what we see with their cosmology they have back then is they've essentially got a snow globe version of the earth that they're living in. And that last bit that said there that God called the firmament heaven. If you look up in verse 1, in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. God's actually creating a place, heaven, and so everything. There's places beyond that heaven and that's the chaos waters that God is creating this earth inside of.

Tyler K. Gordon: 7:00

Here's the other thing right, like a of people get flatter from from those phrasings right and again the. The other phrasing that I find that people get really confused on is on day one they separate the light from the darkness, and then on day four, they create the sun and the moon and the stars. And it's like what do you mean? You already did that. Like what is separating light from darkness other than creating the sun? Right and again it comes back to more of a spiritual reading of the text, like what does light symbolically mean?

Tyler K. Gordon: 7:36

In the gospel it's going to mean the glory of god, and I think you can look at that and see um hints about like the in heaven, where literally light, god, jesus Christ, was separated from darkness, lucifer and his followers. And so again it comes back to this idea of even in the firmament text, we're talking symbolically here of yeah and again, I think you read it as a whole. I think it's a blocked read. You have to read the whole thing because what it's showing you is God has order, he has an order of doing things, he plans things out and then he executes things. It's not just hey, I just feel like I'm going to do this today it's like we're going to do this and then this and then this, we're going to do this and then this and then this. The idea, for me personally at least, is God is a God of order and he'll do things in an orderly fashion that makes sense.

Sam Binns: 8:32

Yeah, and so the spiritual reading. You're able to draw all kinds of connections and it's helpful in that way. But if somebody's trying to look at it scientifically and they look at the text, you'll see the things like the firmament, like the waters being divided from the waters, and you get the old cosmology that they had and it's not what we have today. They didn't have Galileo, they didn't have the scientific findings that we have now. And so even Paul in the New Testament, when he's talking about the stars and the sun and the moon having their own light and we're like the moon reflects the sun and Paul would have been like what are you talking about? So the old cosmology, at least in Genesis, and when we find it in the other texts as well as in the temple, it's interesting to see how many people will try and say, okay, the firmament must be the atmosphere, and they start drawing all these conclusions that really aren't necessary.

Tyler K. Gordon: 9:39

We don't need that account to be specifically scientifically correct yeah, the other thing that I say and I said this in the last podcast episode of like, when you are testing a scientific theory about temperature, right, you're not going to use a barometer it. That just it's not. That doesn't make sense. If you're going to test a spiritual theory, you're not going to use a thermometer to test a spiritual theory. You're going to use spiritual needs in order to test your spiritual theory. And so if you're going to go to Genesis and take a scientific approach to it, it's not going to work, it just won't. It won't prove that God is real. Because ultimately, at the end of the day, I think that's what people want to do is they want to take scientific devices, put them to the Bible, put them to the Book of Mormon and say, okay, light up, if this is all real, right, and it's like that's not how this works.

Sam Binns: 10:39

So there's that. At least we're talking a little bit about that scientific and spiritual dichotomy of reading the creation texts. Now the first thing that we're going to get into with the philosophy behind this stuff is creation ex nihilo and ex materia, or creation from nothing or from existing matter. In the King Follett sermon I keep quoting back to this one, that's one of my favorites. But in the King Follett sermon Joseph Smith talks a little bit about this word create, and this is a good introduction to what this is about. With creation from nothing, he says you ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing, and they will answer doesn't? The Bible say he created the world. And they infer from the word create that it must have been made out of nothing.

Sam Binns: 11:36

Now the word create came from the word barau, which does not mean to create out of nothing. It means to organize, the same as a man would organize materials, and so it's eternal, just like us. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed. They may be organized and reorganized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end. So Joseph kind of gives an introduction here to we have creation from material from existing matter. That verse, abraham 3, verse 24, says near the very end of the verse and we will take of these materials and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell, as well as in the temple. We get the phrase matter unorganized. Those two phrases are pretty key points to support what Joseph is saying about how we don't believe in creation from nothing. Christians of course don't like that. They want to be able to say that God just snapped his fingers or whatever to create the earth.

Tyler K. Gordon: 12:50

But so sorry, this thought just popped into my head so it might be a cut thought, but so from that it tells me that the universe exists in a state of chaos to start, without God organizing anything. It exists in an unorganized state, which I would argue is chaos. God then organizes it and creates not chaos, and then humans come into the world and partake of the fruit chaos. We can talk about that more later, but what I'm saying is for me it almost feels more powerful for a god to be able to take a naturally chaotic state and force it to be an organized, well-oiled machine. I don't know. For me personally, that speaks a lot more than a god that can just say I like the, the idea of god saying let there be light and there was light, and we believe that in in like a theoretical sense and I think the problems that arise with creation from nothing, as we'll get into with the problem of evil is pretty bad.

Sam Binns: 14:01

If you have creation from nothing, we have a lot of problems. Get us back on track. Where were we at? Yeah, so Genesis. Let's pull up first Genesis 2, 7, "and the Lord, god, formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul". So there's another spot where people could probably say he's pulling man straight from the ground and there's no way to have space for evolution, things like that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 14:35

Oh sure.

Sam Binns: 14:37

So that's the spot where we, as members of the church, would say we don't have to take that literally. And in the very same case, we could go back to the point of all of this doesn't have to be taken literally, like we don't have to take it that way, but I also want to give space here.

Tyler K. Gordon: 14:53

I agree with you. I think that to be taken from the dust can mean a lot of different things, but I also want to give space here of like, there are people out there who do believe that God created Adam directly from the dust. Right there, right, no evolution, and I think that's a fine reading of the text. If that's where your faith lies, I think that's totally fine and I think that's valid and I think that's a beautiful form of faith. I don't want you to think that, like me and Sam being on this podcast all of a sudden because we have microphones, are the definitive source right?

Sam Binns: 15:29

Well, the church's points on this is we don't have a position. Yeah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 15:34

So you can believe you can have both.

Tyler K. Gordon: 15:36

Yeah, you can believe in evolution. You can not believe in evolution. And I think it's important to engage in dialogue of like, oh, why don't you believe in evolution? And you might point to this scripture or other, you might point to revelation that you've personally received in your own life, and I think that's great and I think that's beautiful. And I just wanted to go on this tangent real quick and be like, hey, everybody has their own beliefs and I think that's great and I think that's beautiful, and I think that's what makes Zion Zion is we're all one mind, but that doesn't necessarily we're not all unique.

Sam Binns: 16:07

Then let's jump down. We're going through just some of the verses really quickly. Yep, Genesis 1 now verses 26 and 27.

Tyler K. Gordon: 16:15

I can read that if you want.

Sam Binns: 16:16

Go for it.

Tyler K. Gordon: 16:18

And God said let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image and the image of God, created he him male and female, created he them.

Sam Binns: 16:42

Just to start, in our church, in how we interpret this is we are created in the image of God. Okay, what does that mean? We believe it means that we look like God. We believe that God has fingers and eyes and ears and toes and that we have a body just like Him. So that's our interpretation, whereas I've heard of some other interpretations of being we are created in his image, as though we have the capacity to love, the capacity to have joy and to have emotion. There's those different interpretations. What are your thoughts on those?

Tyler K. Gordon: 17:19

Being created in God's image could also be taken in a context of like image could also be taken in a context of like. Christ came down and embodied a physical being, right, a physical form that looked like us, and Christ in a colloquial sense is God, and so it could be interpreted in that kind of a sense as well. Pointing us this scripture is pointing us towards Christ, christ also embodied a human form.

Sam Binns: 17:47

Here's the thing the creation, adam and Eve, moral agency. All of it is so detailed that already I feel like the episode is just going so many different directions so quickly. Is that, when people are listening to this, that they'll be able to take one path that they're interested in on this topic and research that further? Just because there's so much that we just can't get into it all, or else this would be like a two or three hour episode. Let's jump to Genesis 2 again and we're going to go to verse 18.

Sam Binns: 18:21

So this one is also one that I think is important for spiritual purposes. It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him and help meet for him. So I just like how this highlights the need for both man and woman equity, equality between the two genders. I think it's important to recognize that, like that's probably one of the ones we can take the most face value for at least our church is we need both. We need both in the church, we need both sides, we need both of them. This highlights the need for marriage as well and how it's.

Sam Binns: 19:04

I remember President Nelson said knowing that it was not good for man to be alone. I chose to marry again, said. Knowing that it was not good for man to be alone, I chose to marry again, and I think that highlights just how important he, and as well the rest of the church, sees. We're not meant to go through this life completely alone, and in the unfortunate case that that does happen, god has provisions made for everyone to be able to have that opportunity if they wanted, and so I just like I enjoy the fact that right from the start of the creation, god is saying everything's ready except for this. We need this to be in place so that they're not going to fall apart while they're there.

Tyler K. Gordon: 19:47

Well, and I think it's also important to recognize that not only are women, in just this idea of creation, vital, but they're vital in Zion right. We cannot have a Zion community without every single person. We need everyone there on an equal footing. Right, there's this idea.

Tyler K. Gordon: 20:10

And again, being a gay Latter-day Saint, I understand being not in necessarily the mold of a cis, straight white male in the church. I get that. I've been there, I understand that and I understand that that can be difficult, but I have a firm testimony in the sealing power and in marriage between a man and a woman. And again, for my LGBTQ brothers and sisters who might end up marrying someone of the same sex, what I want you to know, first and foremost, is that you're loved and that we want you in the congregation, we want you there, right?

Tyler K. Gordon: 21:13

We talked about this last week with the episode about my faith journey, so I just wanted to add on to what Sam's saying and just say those things of like yes, one, first and foremost, marriage between a man and a woman is doctrinal, and I sustain that. A man and a woman is doctrinal, and I sustain that and I uphold that. But two, God is merciful beyond belief and he knows where you're at and where you're going through. So, anyway, I love the creation account and I love specifically this scripture about Adam needing a helpmeet. Right, he needed the helpmeet. It wasn't like oh yeah, it might be a let's clarify, that's m-e-e-t.

Tyler K. Gordon: 21:53

Yes yes, it wasn't just like uh, oh, maybe this could be a good it was. No, this is a required thing. You are, you are not to be alone, and we see this later on, like they have to make this choice to not be alone.

Sam Binns: 22:09

Ultimately, and again, it's so important that we recognize Does that portion of make the choice later on to not be alone? Does that come from the temple? Is that what you're talking about? I think that's where you're getting that from, because I don't recall that being in any of the readings.

Tyler K. Gordon: 22:26

Yeah, you can extrapolate it from the readings, because Eve partakes of the fruit and then Adam partakes of the fruit, yeah, and then adam partakes of the fruit. But that conversation that happens is is, I believe, in the only in the temple, so, but you can extrapolate that of like, well, adam, adam did have to make the choice at some point and, and I do believe there would be this sort of discussion of like, hey, I'm gonna get kicked out of the garden, I'm not allowed to be here anymore. Will you come with me? And I think, I think that is maybe the greatest love story I've ever read. You are, you're in a perfect space, you're in a perfect place.

Sam Binns: 23:02

So to then idyllic space, I'd say there's. There's no good and evil yet, but it. But it's not perfect and wonderful and everything.

Tyler K. Gordon: 23:12

It's just it is, but wouldn't any place that God is be perfect?

Sam Binns: 23:18

inherently, in the sense that it's not corrupted, yes, but in the sense that Adam doesn't know what he's losing? Well, technically he's not losing anything.

Tyler K. Gordon: 23:29

He's got to know at least a little bit right, Otherwise it wouldn't be a choice. So anyway, anyway, back to what I was saying Greatest love story of all time to go from even this Edenic place. Life's good Fruit just grows on trees and you just eat them, and then you make baskets.

Sam Binns: 23:46

There's no weeds.

Tyler K. Gordon: 23:47

There's no weeds to afflict and torment. But what I'm saying is, Adam chooses to go with Eve ultimately, and I think that's a beautiful story and I love that story. I love that Eve has this foresight about the plan of salvation and understanding. She is the reason that we have Christ. She is the reason, Do you not agree with that? Well, just explain what you mean. We, from the premortal existence, needed a savior. The only way the savior would have come about would be through Eve. So the reason why we have a savior is because the transgression and to be honest the necessary fall, the necessary fall, and I want a savior, I want someone who I feel like I can rely on and I can trust. I want that. And ultimately, I guess what I'm saying is, although to celebrate transgression is like a strange thing, we both recognize that it was a necessary step in the plan of salvation and so to celebrate it maybe isn't the correct word but to revere it is.

Sam Binns: 24:58

We'll get into that in a minute I'll explain Sure.

Tyler K. Gordon: 25:01

Okay, you take us away. I've been going off on a tangent for a second here.

Sam Binns: 25:05

So to get towards what he's talking about, let's talk a little bit about the conflicting commandments. So some people in the church think that there's a conflicting commandment between multiply and replenish the earth and don't eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And because we have 2 Nephi 2, when Lehi says they would have had no children, and that's just in their state in the Garden of Eden, they would have had no children. That's where we get that point of okay, so how are they supposed to have children if they're in the Garden, right? So some people can easily get into that point of there's conflicting commandments.

Sam Binns: 25:48

But there's also that what I prefaced this entire episode with the two creation accounts, the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth comes in that first one in Genesis 1,. Near the very end, just after those verses, we read about man being created in the image of God. That's the multiply and replenish the earth. Multiply and replenish the earth. The second one comes in the second account in Genesis 2, 17. If you are reading them separately, there are no conflicting commandments because there's no other commandment given. So there's one way. That's one way you can read, and I believe I got that one from Ben Spackman. He's a really good scholar and he points this out and I thought I'd share that as well today. But then the other portion is if they are to be read together, as most people read them together, what do we do?

Tyler K. Gordon: 26:42

Yeah, no, here's the thing. I'm not gonna pretend like I know because I struggle with this, this. This is one of those things, right, like you say, some people in the church struggle with this, some people are tyler gordon, um, so, like it, it really does feel like god was like hey, don't eat of the fruit, but also multiply and replenish the earth. And with second ephi we learn but you can't multiply and replenish the earth.

Sam Binns: 27:08

So why can't? Would have had no children, that's where we get into the weird spot.

Tyler K. Gordon: 27:15

But what does?

Sam Binns: 27:15

would mean yeah, right, right. So that's where he starts to have a headache. Tyler is leaning back in his chair, so sad.

Tyler K. Gordon: 27:23

Shaking my head.

Sam Binns: 27:27

So that's where we get into. Some of the issues is would have had no children. What does that?

Tyler K. Gordon: 27:31

mean yes. It feels very conflicting to me, because this is where I have to take this information and just kind of internalize. Even after this conversation that we're going to have today, I don't think I'm going to be satisfied with an answer. And so I've got to take this information and say, okay, I don't understand this part of creation or the plan of salvation or Adam and Eve, and I've got to say, okay, what does that mean? Ultimately, at the end of the day, I know Jesus is the Christ and I know Joseph Smith restored the church, so this small portion isn't going to affect my testimony. It's something that I can chew on, that I can go back to and be like huh, this still doesn't make sense, let me think about it. But I think the important thing to recognize is not everything in the gospel is going to make sense immediately, because if it did, jesus wouldn't have taught in parables Some things you've got to sit and think about. So, anyway, continue with this.

Sam Binns: 28:28

In my opinion, Continue with this, in my opinion, conflicting commandments. Yeah, so you have the two commandments and with the added help of Abraham and Moses and the temple and everything that we get from modern prophets, the understanding that I have is that, if you were to read it together, god sets up the Garden of Eden in such a way that, one, he avoids being the source of all evil, which is something we'll get into here in a minute but then, two, he sets it up so that it's their choice, which is part of that. He's not the source. He sets this up saying I need you to multiply and replenish the earth, but I'm also going to forbid taking the fruit that will get you to that point. If that would not have had children means can't.

Sam Binns: 29:15

He sets this up so that they have to make a choice, and at this point they do not have what I call, and what the scriptures call, moral agency. They don't have the choice between right and wrong. They only have a choice between right and wrong. They only have a choice. So when they make this choice to take the fruit, they aren't really responsible for that yet, and when they eat it, that's when they realize oh shoot, we've done something wrong Before that they just knew like we have two commandments and so it's kind of a weird space. But when they take that fruit they then have moral agency and they say, okay, now we're making choices, that we're actually understanding, that we can know the right and wrong between.

Tyler K. Gordon: 30:02

Well, and I think the thing that gives me solace, or at least gives my mind a little bit of rest, is, to be honest, they could have stayed in the garden forever. They could have, like, had that been their choice, they could have. And I think that gives me rest and solace because and we also don't know how long they were in the garden maybe a few million years, maybe a couple billion, maybe trillions we don't know right Maybe five days, like we truly, truly don't know and so it gives me solace in this idea of like, yeah, they had the choice and they got to make that choice, and in some ways, eve was able to make that choice, having a basic understanding of being able to go through life in a better way.

Sam Binns: 30:49

Right, yeah, and I think them having no knowledge of good and evil makes it a little, like you said, more solace and comfort for that, because they're like two-year-olds at this point. They don't understand right and wrong, they just know I can choose to do this and I can choose to do that. They don't know what's right and what's wrong. Right, because the tree has that knowledge, and so when they eat it, that's when they get moral agency. So they're in this childlike state and because of what we have with 2, nephi would have had no children. If that meant can't, then they wouldn't have been responsible for not having children because they didn't know good and evil yet.

Sam Binns: 31:31

Sure, right, even though God's sitting there telling them not to do this and to do this, they don't know good and evil. They can't be responsible. Yeah, I think it's the Book of Mormon that talk really specifically about the knowledge of the law, and having a law given is what makes someone responsible for their sins. And if they don't understand the law, or if they don't understand right and wrong, that's when they are no longer responsible.

Tyler K. Gordon: 32:07

Yep, that's why they call it a transgression is because it's not inherently a sin, because they didn't understand right from wrong at that point. They still did something wrong, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they understood fully the choice.

Sam Binns: 32:22

That's why it's a transgression. They did something wrong, but they didn't understand what they were doing. And there's actually a wonderful talk, from Elder Oaks, I believe, where he talks about that dichotomy between the two. I can't remember the title, but if someone finds it, let us know and maybe we can link it. Is there a way to link it in show notes? Okay?

Tyler K. Gordon: 32:41

100% there is. I also want to preface here as well, as much as we've been saying, like they didn't know exactly the choice they were making. It was a transgression. I do believe in some ways Eve knew a lot about the plan. I don't know, it's not scriptural, this is Tyler Doctrine. My tie, metaphorically, is over my shoulder right now. But Eve was an intelligent individual and I super respect her and I do believe in Tyler Doctrine that she had to have some sort of inkling about the plan, otherwise why partake of the fruit? Yeah, there's an annoying serpent there who you know, you've probably been dealing with for the past two days or five years or 10,000 years. I want to believe that Eve must have known something. I get really weary, but like when she says is there no other way? Well, the no other way comes from the temple Right.

Sam Binns: 33:39

That's why I'm like this is going to be a cut thing. Well, the no other way comes from the temple Right.

Tyler K. Gordon: 33:43

That's why I'm like this is going to be a cut thing. Well, it doesn't have to be. I guess not. I just get really weary about quoting directly. But when she says is there no other way, it indicates to me that she understands. Okay, this is the path forward.

Sam Binns: 33:59

Also funny thing. You mentioned the serpent, yes, and it brought to mind the fact that we never actually get in the Genesis account. We never get any confirmation that that's Satan.

Tyler K. Gordon: 34:10

Oh for real.

Sam Binns: 34:11

So that comes from later scripture. So I believe that we get the Satan being the serpent. I believe we can also get that from the Bible later on. Okay, but I think it's just serpent, never Satan. Anyway, that's interesting. That's a little side thought.

Sam Binns: 34:28

Where do you want to go next? I want to add something here at this point in the episode is we've covered, like I said earlier, we've covered so many things and only touched the surface of so many things, and I feel like I'm butchering so much of this that it's I feel bad, but at the same time I'm thinking the time constraints force this to be this way. So I'm going to make a little challenge earlier on and we'll have another one at the end of the episode, but I'm going to send a challenge out there to if something we said doesn't make sense and here's the thing if all of it has made sense so far, something's wrong. But if something hasn't made sense, go and read some more and listen to some scholars, talk to others in your family about things like this. Just get some discussion, get some reading, get some information, more information on all this. The BYU websites, of course, have great stuff with their religious studies and things like that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 35:27

A single podcast cannot answer everything.

Tyler K. Gordon: 35:31

By two random people cannot answer everything. Other podcasts with well-known individuals who do Come, follow Me can't answer everything and I'd be willing to bet that they'd agree with that. Follow me can't answer everything and I'd be willing to bet that they'd agree with that. That's why we have general conference every six months is because not because it's like, well, the gospel is revealed and we know it all.

Tyler K. Gordon: 35:50

No, there are nuances that we learn daily and so I love what Sam said here is yeah, we're going to talk a lot about a bunch of different things, but we're not going to get into everything, and that's why it's important to engage with us on social media. So if you do have a topic that you want us to talk about, comment that, let us know and we'll take it into consideration and think about it. But again, we want to cover as much as possible, but understand that it's not possible to cover everything. Much as possible, but understand that it's not possible to cover everything. How long Joseph Smith was doing what he did? From 1830 to 1844? So 14 years. There's no way an hour-long podcast episode can cover everything that he said or did in 14 years, or any of the prophets and apostles from the restoration time till now, moving on from there we can look at what we get from the fall.

Sam Binns: 36:52

We get a world full of moral choices. Oh, and I'll add in here the age of accountability is something specifically set out in Scripture, for you can baptize your kids at this age. Not necessarily they're accountable at this age. Some kids can be more accountable at seven, six, or some can be accountable at 10, and some will never be accountable. Some people just never get to the point where they're accountable. So that's a little something on the side and we'll get back to the other stuff.

Tyler K. Gordon: 37:27

I have a comment. Eight is very symbolic, right. Like in the law of Abraham, right, circumcision happened on the eighth day. It's this idea of seven days of creation, six days of creation, one day of rest. Eight is the day, a new day, right, the start of something new. And so the age of eight is also going to be symbolic around that idea of. And so that's why, when you say some people are accountable before the age of eight, some people are accountable later, eight is a very symbolic thing, and I think that's something important to remember as well. In terms of ordinances, it's all symbolic, right, it's all a physical representation of a symbolic thing that you're doing.

Sam Binns: 38:14

So, anyway, so we have moral agency, at least once we're accountable. Everybody has moral agency. We live in this world with sickness, entropy of all kinds, and so we have bad choices being made, and this is where we're getting into the problem of evil. We live in a world with evil and this is where the premortal life really gets. Important is we made the choice to be here before we came.

Sam Binns: 38:43

We agreed to the plan that there's going to be sickness, there's going to be death, there's going to be all kinds of suffering. We knew this was coming. We essentially signed a waiver, if you will, and God set up the creation here that we've talked about in such a way that he avoids being the source of evil, because he's given that to Adam and Eve, and said I'm not going to make the choice to bring this to pass, I'm going to let you do so, and essentially it's they already agreed. Yeah, we're going to be the ones that's going to bring this about because of the premortal life. I hope this is making sense. This is something that takes a lot to explain and I don't think I'm explaining it perfectly, I think you're doing fine.

Sam Binns: 39:34

What matters to me is the fact that the way God set up the creation leaves him out of the source of evil.

Tyler K. Gordon: 39:44

Well, and you look at the true source of evil. Is Lucifer right? Yes, would you agree. His agency, his choosing to rebel against the Father in the pre-mortal life and to continue to rebel as we journey through this mortal life? That's where the serpent quote-unquote comes in and tempts Adam and Eve. This all stems from Satan, and Satan being a spiritual offspring of the Father in Heaven it's a different theme.

Sam Binns: 40:19

He was never created out of nothing. That's the point. He never was created by created out of nothing. That's the point, yes, is he never was created by God out of nothing. Therefore, anything that he does is his own choice, not God's, which is so important to me personally, because I think if God in any way was to create anyone or anything out of nothing, he has placed inside of them the capacity for evil, and in that case he has placed inside of them the capacity for evil, and in that case he's the source of evil, he's an accomplice to it, and that's really problematic. And so I think that creation from nothing is reprehensible in my eyes, and so that's at least my personal view is, with creation from nothing, you get a God who is evil, or at least is the source of evil, and I am not willing to accept that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 41:08

Well, and it also with intelligences being eternal before even God. That's where you get this idea of that is something on its own, that is its own entity, and that own entity can make decisions such as rebel against God.

Sam Binns: 41:28

Or make the decision to follow God's plan, to progress Amen when we get sent here to earth. It was not out of a forced thing. We chose to come here. Any suffering we go through and any suffering we give out is something that everybody has already agreed to in a sense. And it's tough that way, because we're still sitting here and we're like this sucks. And we're praying to God and we're saying please, this sucks, please send comfort. But beyond that we can't really blame him, because he said here's the plan, here's the stipulations, are you willing to go through with this? And a third of everyone said no, and that was their choice.

Tyler K. Gordon: 42:17

I also just think you know, sometimes it's more than this sucks, right, this is unfair. A lot of the things that I find in life are unfair are because of other people's choices. You and I have had this discussion before about God being a hands-on God versus a God who lets things play out and allows us to have our agency, and I think there's a perfect balance between those contraries, but I find that a lot of the suffering that I go through specifically is because of the choices of other people. Now let me flip that on its head and say there are some sufferings that are just there just because they're there. Right, I've talked about my same-sex attraction. That's not a choice that anybody made at any one point, and so it's those kinds of things that I'm not going to lie.

Tyler K. Gordon: 43:10

Sometimes I look up at God and I'm like why? Why me? I'm proud of who I am, but yet it's hard. It's hard to be who I am, and so that's where the Savior comes in and he's able to succor us, he's able to comfort us. He doesn't always take away the trial. Sometimes he does. Sometimes he asks us to walk on the water, and we walk on the water, and then sometimes we end up drowning a little bit and he comes to save us. So all of that to say, yeah, we knew coming into this life in the premortal existence it was going to be tough, it was going to be impossible, but we decided to come anyways. And that's not to discount anyone's suffering or anybody's trials, it not to say, like, well, you agreed to it, so you better buck up and be better right, like I think that there is a that's.

Tyler K. Gordon: 44:09

That's not the point of that no yeah I think there's a healthy point to saying like, yeah, real trauma, real trials happen. It's tough. It's tough and I I get it in a sense. I've been through hard things. Sam gets it in a sense, he's been through hard things, but we haven't been through what you're going through specifically. The only person who's done that is Christ, and as you turn to him, you will start to see how he is able to potentially deliver you, but even more potentially just come and sit with you and just listen and just cry with you. Sometimes you just need a good cry.

Sam Binns: 44:49

Yeah, and I think that's a great way to bring the episode close to a close is with the promise of Jesus Christ, any of the evils that come because of the fall are going to be rectified, are going to be fixed, and in the case of our own personal choices, all that's left is repentance and just improvement and progression. When Adam and Eve left the garden and we have this from, I believe, Moses they are doing sacrifices, they're out in the world and from the very beginning, they're told of Jesus Christ and His atonement. I think it's important to remember that, with all of the nuances and all of the issues that we could find in the scriptures, the important thing is that our theology pulls God from being the source of evil and instead turns him into the source of comfort and joy and peace and succor from evil.

Tyler K. Gordon: 45:58

Yeah, I think at the end of the day these are going to be my closing remarks and then we can get to a call of action and an outro. But my closing remarks are going to be this If you struggle with the creation account, if you fully believe in flat earth, that's you.

Sam Binns: 46:14

If you struggle with morals and evil or Adam and Eve's situation conflicting.

Tyler K. Gordon: 46:19

Commandments, yes, evil or Adam and Eve? Situation conflicting commandments yes.

Tyler K. Gordon: 46:22

Like what I want you to know. With all of that conflicting commandments, with all of this right, package it all up, put it aside for a second. Ask the question is Jesus the Christ? Did Joseph Smith restore Jesus Christ's church? And if you can answer those questions and both of those are yes, then unpackage this again, rewatch the episode, relisten to the episode and be like oh yeah, no, that makes sense. This doesn't make sense. I don't agree with this whatsoever. But ultimately we need to be focused on Christ and I love that the end of each of our episodes have turned into just talking about Jesus Christ and how he relates to the episode. I think that's a beautiful thing. I think it's through his grace that we find peace and comfort in these stories that sometimes don't make sense or don't.

Tyler K. Gordon: 47:16

And again, like I said earlier in the episode, I struggle with the quote-unquote conflicting commandments. I still do. I'm still. This feels weird to me. I don't know that I understand or can sit well with that, but I do know that Jesus is the Christ and I do know that Joseph Smith restored Jesus Christ's church on the earth. I know those things and because I know those things, the rest can fall behind in line. So those are my closing remarks. I love the creation story. I love the story of Adam and Eve. I love those stories. I love Eve and her willingness and courageousness to go through this hard thing so that I can be here sitting with Sam doing a podcast, here sitting with Sam doing a podcast. I just I love this idea of the eternal love of God which we find in that story of Adam and Eve. So go ahead and hit us with a call to action.

Sam Binns: 48:11

Well, and to preface this invitation, the last I think it was in the Premortal Life episode. You were saying I want more scripture about the war in heaven. I think for me I would love more scripture about Adam and Eve, the creation and some of the things revolving problem of evil and morals and creation from nothing. I think to have more of that would be fantastic because it would answer a lot of our questions that we get from scripture that was written for certain purposes that don't answer those purposes. But as we finish up here, I want to invite you to read or listen to the BYU speech from David L Paulson Joseph Smith and the Problem of Evil.

Sam Binns: 48:57

Personally, I feel like it's a great intro to creation from nothing and the problem of evil. He gives some really good. He gives some good explanation on this and how Joseph Smith relieves God of the issue of being evil or being an accomplice to evil. So I think that would be a great way to try and flesh out some of your understanding. That may be a little rocky, especially after our amateur attempts to explain things. That's what I have and I think we can go ahead and do the outro. I'll let you do that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 49:36

Thank you all again for listening. We are very appreciative of the support that we've been seeing on the podcast. We wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for listening. We are very appreciative of the support that we've been seeing on the podcast. We wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for you and your support, and we really do appreciate that. We are excited about this episode and upcoming episodes. We are going to start to have some guests on the podcast, so be prepared and excited about that. We have some great guests lined up. It's going to be so much fun. But now we have a TikTok account that we don't use. You can follow it for funsies, but we are putting out a lot of stuff, so make sure to go follow those socials. As I've said, thank you for the support and we will catch you in the next episode. Bye, bye.