Tyler K. Gordon: 0:01

Like my whole life was changing and I had no control over it, and it just felt like it was just like this train destined for a bridge that wasn't completed yet right, Like I felt like I was going to go off the rails at any moment, and so I was just getting ready for that, and it was scary because I just didn't know where I was going or what was next for me. Hello and welcome everyone to the From Grace to Grace podcast. My name is Tyler Gordon and I'm here with Sam Binns, and we are just getting started on this podcast episode. There's not much of an introduction. If you haven't listened to the first episode, go listen to it. You can get to know both of us. And then our last episode, too, was an exciting episode about the premortal existence. I don't know. I thought that it went well.

Sam Binns: 0:57

Maybe I just spent too much time quoting things.

Tyler K. Gordon: 0:59

No, I thought it was fine. I thought it was fine, I thought it was good, I get excited.

Sam Binns: 1:03

I just become a human citation index for a little bit.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:08

As we've both said, we're both learning how to podcast. Still, we're both like getting into the groove of things and even this recording session we're learning how to do things. We've changed things up a little bit. We gave me a pop filter because I get too excited with my speaking, sam gets too excited with his quoting and I get too excited with my speaking. So we're working on things.

Sam Binns: 1:30

We're adjusting.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:31

Yes, we're adjusting as we go, but welcome to this episode. This is our second time recording. We recorded the first three if you want to call them episodes the trailer and the first two episodes in one batch, so this is technically our third time recording, but anyway, doesn't matter, I'm going to cut all this out anyways. Today's episode is titled Navigating a Latter-day Saint Faith Crisis, which is near and dear to my heart I've gone through. Well, most people call it a faith crisis and we'll talk about the nuances of that, but I don't know, Sam. Do you know anyone, or have you personally gone through a faith crisis or a faith transition?

Sam Binns: 2:14

I don't know of anybody. Personally, I think I've been pretty blessed to be just around generally faithful people. I've never had to deal too much with a situation like that, but I can definitely point out places where people are asking questions and looking for depth on things. That includes myself. On the mission, it went from a point of just general belief and faith and so forth to okay, let's start digging.

Tyler K. Gordon: 2:45

That's the first little bit that I want to get into. Right is faith crisis versus faith transition. I think a lot of people, faith crisis is the trigger word. Everybody knows faith crisis is this thing, but I think it's more appropriate to maybe call it a faith transition, and so what I would say to you is I think everybody is constantly going through a faith transition, Like we're all rediscovering or discovering new aspects of our faith, and so I think it's important to recognize that faith crisis kind of puts like a negative light on it, whereas faith transition means that it's blossoming into something new. I don't know what are your thoughts on the terminology?

Sam Binns: 3:26

For me. Actually, I focus more on the word faith. Okay, just because in my mind I always think of faith as belief coupled with action, and then that's the measuring stick for how much faith you have. That's like my equation for, okay, what is faith? It's belief plus action. Interesting. So that's when we come to the word faith crisis. I sit there and I think that doesn't quite compute in my brain. So the way I understand it is just belief crisis, like general belief crisis of in the church, whether it be the church itself or like faith in a deity in general. So that's my thoughts.

Tyler K. Gordon: 4:04

But under your definition still faith crisis could still make sense right. Because if faith is partly action as well, your faith could be waning from like attending church or the temple or paying tithing or things like that.

Sam Binns: 4:17

I don't know. So that's a point where you could say okay, the faith. If you were to put it in a little meter, you could say the faith meter is going down, because belief and action are both going down. It's just kind of a, it's a terminology, it's semantics.

Tyler K. Gordon: 4:35

In the programming world we call it syntax, but I get what we're all transitioning in our faith and sometimes that's an upward slope and sometimes that's a downward slope, and so I think throughout this conversation you'll hear me call it faith transition, Sometimes I'll call it a faith crisis. I don't know. Anyway you tell me where you want to go first. Do you want to talk about my journey through my faith transition first, or do you want to talk about these stages of faith that I have written down?

Sam Binns: 5:08

Let's do the vegetables before the fruit. Let's leave your story for the end.

Tyler K. Gordon: 5:14

There are a couple of things with faith transitions that I wanted to talk about.

Tyler K. Gordon: 5:18

As I've studied a little bit about faith transitions, faith crises, I've found that there's this idea of stages of faith and, to simplify it down, jared Halvorson, he calls it Creation Fall Atonement. Saints Unscripted did a video on this and they called it Simplicity, complexity, and then Simplicity Beyond Complexity. I prefer Creation Fall Atonement because it's like, less complicated in my opinion. But the idea is we go from this state of innocence. Right, like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, we fall from that state of innocence. Maybe we read something about polygamy, maybe we hear something about Joseph Smith doing something that doesn't jive with our traditional picture of what a prophet is. So we have this fall and then we are able to get past this fall with the atonement by basically combining that creation aspect and the fall aspect and understanding that there's more to it than just surface level stuff. Right, there's depth to a lot of the issues in the church that people struggle with.

Sam Binns: 6:34

And I think that analogy can be carried a little farther too is the fall. It's always described, in our church at least, as a a positive step forward. Yeah, we always view it as a positive thing, and so for us, we could term this as it's positive growth, even though it's painful at some points or it can be sobering, yes, but it's still helping you grow and it's going to leave you better off in the end, because in our doctrine, of course, the fall is an essential portion to leaving us better off in the end from how we were in the premortal life.

Tyler K. Gordon: 7:15

It's even necessary. The fall is necessary in order for us to really understand the full aspect of the atonement. Something that I love about some teachings that I've been trying to understand a little bit more is the contraries that God lives into, like justice and mercy and things like that, and I think that the atonement is this perfect example of combining our innocence in the creation phase right Like understanding that Joseph Smith was a prophet and he found gold plates and combining that with the fall phase which, yeah, he used a seer stone and a hat and combining those two things to be I don't know. I find it to be a much more beautiful doctrine. As I study it further, those are the creation, fall, atonement stages of faith. We'll move on to Ether 12.6 and we can come back to anything that we may want. Ether 12.6 actually transitions into my faith journey a little bit. I've got it pulled up.

Sam Binns: 8:18

You beat me to the chase, I'm prepared.

Tyler K. Gordon: 8:20

I have it pulled up on the computer. So Ether 12.6,. Do you want to read that for us?

Sam Binns: 8:25

Absolutely. And now I, moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things. I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for. Anything stand out to you. Dispute not because, ye see, not portion is ever more and more important these days as we have more and more loud agnostics and atheists saying. To sum it all up, seeing is believing is like the main portion of their argument. There's more to their arguments than that. That's. One of the main ones is you can't know for sure, right?

Tyler K. Gordon: 9:13

That's the point of faith. I think it's important to recognize what is science used for and what is religion used for.

Sam Binns: 9:23

Because the question will always be is there a way to learn more truth beyond the physical senses, the scientific ways? Is there another way to learn truth? That's the question of anything spiritual.

Tyler K. Gordon: 9:41

And even science will concede that, yeah, we can only test the physical world. We can't test things beyond the physical senses, just because we don't have the instruments to do that.

Sam Binns: 9:54

We can't test them physically, we can test them spiritually. That's a discussion for another time.

Tyler K. Gordon: 9:58

I think that's where it comes into. Science specifically is used for understanding how things work, and religion gives us the why things work. I think it comes to, and I'm sure we're going to get into this in the next episode. I think it comes to, and I'm sure we're going to get into this in the next episode, but I think that comes down to like creation, like science is going to say big bang or evolution, and and religion is going to say creation in God's image, and I don't think those things are mutually exclusive.

Sam Binns: 10:29

And I agree Well we'll talk about that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 10:31

I'll leave that for next episode. Just a little teaser, but I think I think that's going to be a fun, a fun topic of conversation. But what I'm saying is science, you don't have to, you don't have to dispute the spiritual things because you don't see them. You, you use different instruments in order to measure those different things and I think that's what got me caught up.

Tyler K. Gordon: 10:53

When I first started to go through a little bit of a faith transition, I was like I had a mission companion I hope he's not listening to this, I'm not going to call him out, but I had a mission companion and he was very traditionalist, like firm traditionalist. I had a mission companion and he was very traditionalist, like firm traditionalist. In fact, when I said something like evolution and religion can coincide and I think that's fine, he made me listen to. It was Kimball or McConkie or it was some like Joseph Fielding Smith. I don't think it was Fielding Smith, but anyway I think it was McConkie. He has a whole talk about how they don't coincide anyway, take your pick of the 20th century yeah, yeah, exactly, and we love those prophets.

Tyler K. Gordon: 11:39

But what I'm saying is he was very like no, this is what's been said and you're gonna follow it. And I think, like that like hard line caused me to pause for a second and start to question like what am I, what is happening here? And that was I'd been struggling with my pause for a second and start to question like what am I, what is happening here? And that was I'd been struggling with my faith for a little bit. So I'd been on my mission and then I came home this is transitioning into a little bit of my own faith crisis and feel free to ask any questions about this process. Came home from my mission and that was December of 2016.

Tyler K. Gordon: 12:13

It was I came home for mental health reasons, so I got home, was wandering a little bit, started some classes at Boise State and started working, and it was complicated. It was probably difficult because the first class I took was marriage and family, which, being a gay Latter-day Saint, it's bold choice, buddy. So I started taking that class and as I was taking that class, some of the things started to rub me the wrong way. They were teaching doctrine, right, and I believe that today it's just the way that they were presenting it, for whatever reason. One reason or another just started to grind against me, and so I started to question about what do I believe, like, where do I go? The ex-Mormon community uses this term called a shelf right, and as you oh Sam's rolling his eyes you don't like the shelf analogy.

Sam Binns: 13:15

It's just, there's so much more to who we are than a shelf, it bothers me to no end.

Tyler K. Gordon: 13:24

I don't know. I think it's a. I personally think it's a fine analogy. I do think it's more complicated than just one shelf. I think there are multiple shelves Ultimately. Yes, there are some things that I just don't know. I just don't know why a seer stone, why polygamy, I just don't know. There are some things that I can speculate on, and then there are some things that I know for sure. I think that there are multiple levels. It's not just one thing, one thing, but regardless, I started to put some things on my quote-unquote shelf.

Tyler K. Gordon: 13:55

I started to listen to some different podcasts about different perspectives and just eventually they started talking about some prominent anti-mormon literature and so I said I might as well go read it, and I can. Can remember it was. I had just gotten home from work and I pulled up this anti-Mormon literature and I was reading through it and I can remember the moment that it felt like my heart broke. I can remember just thinking what am I going to do? How can I believe this anymore?

Tyler K. Gordon: 14:31

And instinctually or just as a way of protection, like I, I knelt down and I started a prayer and basically the prayer was hey, I'm going to, I'm going to leave, like I'm sorry, I can't do this anymore. I'm sorry, like dealing with same-sex attraction, and then all of these like questions that I have now, like I, I just can't do it anymore. And so that's what I did. I started to distance myself from the church. I was working in the temple at the time, and so I wanted to stop working at the temple and so I dyed my hair bleach blonde, and they still didn't release me. So then I dyed my hair blue and then they were like ah yeah, you probably can't work with blue hair. And I was like cool, so distance myself from the church, moved down to Utah to get away from the church which I know is really funny, I know, but nobody knew me down here.

Tyler K. Gordon: 15:30

I didn't have an elders quorum president who was like Tyler Gordon. I know that guy. I'm going to go talk to him. Maybe my records were an award, but it was just a name on a paper so moved down here to get away from the church and just stayed down here. Eventually, July of 2018, I was pretty frustrated with the church and I didn't want to be a statistic anymore, so I removed my records. I got in contact with a law firm. They did all this stuff and my records were removed on July 6th of 2018. Yeah, crazy time. Any thoughts or questions? Yeah, crazy time Any thoughts or questions.

Sam Binns: 16:12

What I'm wondering is, with the removal of your records, did you feel any difference between when your records were still there and when they weren't? Or even before you decided I'm done, versus before you said I'm done in that prayer that you were talking about, did you ever feel like differences in how like your life was going? Or in hindsight, do you think there's a difference?

Tyler K. Gordon: 16:37

So yes and no. I, when I was leaving, I started to gradually wean myself off of religion. So at first I was like, okay, joseph Smith's not a prophet, but Jesus can still be the Christ. Right Like Jesus can still be and right Like Jesus can still be. And then I was like I don't know if I believe the truth claims of even Christianity, but there's got to be some higher power out there, right, there's got to be a God. And then I was like I don't even know if there's a God. So it was just a gradual transition, like you know, cords being wrapped around slowly. I didn't recognize it, I will say when I did come back, there was a drastic difference from going from nothing to something.

Sam Binns: 17:21

Because I went, because you went gradually, you couldn't feel it. Yeah, I didn't notice so it's like that scripture that talks about how he leadeth them carefully down to hell, cheateth their souls. That kind of imagery, yeah, with Lehontai poisoning by degrees, yes. That kind of slow descent from that mountain, yes, okay.

Tyler K. Gordon: 17:40

Yeah, that's really what it was, because I weaned myself off of religion and, anyway, crazy time left. The church was very antagonistic towards the church. I was very upset and Did you have any?

Sam Binns: 17:57

Do you have any funny stories of interacting with members of the church at all?

Tyler K. Gordon: 18:02

Let me think Actually.

Sam Binns: 18:03

Well, funny as in.

Tyler K. Gordon: 18:04

Yes, I understand what you're meaning I haven't told anyone this. I like this must've been December of 2018. So I removed my records in January. I actually started meeting with the missionaries in December of 2018. And I don't know why, and eventually I ghosted them and never talked to them again. And eventually they called me in there and I was like this isn't his number. I don't know who that man is. Please leave me alone now. So I had that. There were some people who decided it was too much. Right, I would post things on Facebook and on Instagram just out of my anger. And there were some friends that were like you know what? I just can't do it If this is how you're going to be acting. I just can't have this negativity in my life. And I go back and forth on. I understand and I get that, but also, at the same time, I'm like when people go through traumatic events such as a faith transition, no matter what faith it is Catholic.

Sam Binns: 19:08

Jewish Loss of belief is a big step in a life, and so it can be very or gaining of belief, yes, the same level of magnitude.

Tyler K. Gordon: 19:17

So it can be very traumatic and I don't. I think I didn't know how to handle myself and I'm gonna be the first to admit that I didn't. I wasn't very graceful with it. My exit was very loud and annoying and frustrated, because I was frustrated, and so I go back and forth on. Maybe you distance yourself but you don't cut off, if that makes sense. Don't burn bridges, but maybe put a little roadblock in the middle of the bridge. I'm trying to think other funny instances. I didn't really have anything like. I just left and I was angry at the church and sometimes I'd run into missionaries and I wanted to say something mean but I never did because I was like I'm not that guy, I'm mad but I'm not that guy, anyway. So left the church, was out of the church, was very angry.

Sam Binns: 20:11

If you don't mind me, asking the interim what happened in the meantime? Yeah, Between the when the fires had slowed down, to a nice ember.

Tyler K. Gordon: 20:23

To be honest, I don't know that they ever slowed down. Okay, I think I was mad the whole time, and especially living in Utah, where your roads are centered around the church, it's a constant reminder that I'm mad all the time. I'm angry at this organization that I perceived was being harmful and we as a culture have things that we need to work on. I'm going to be the first to say that and so those cultural things that I perceived as the religion, that's what I was mad at. That being said, in the interim I went a little off the deep end, right To go from this people don't necessarily like this term, but this high demand religion to nothing all of a sudden, like there are no rules, so like drinking, going out and partying, all that kind of stuff, that's, I was doing that every weekend.

Tyler K. Gordon: 21:19

I, just to be honest, looking back on it, I had this, this void in my soul, and whether you want to call that because I lost the spirit or because I just left this quote unquote high demand religion, you had space in your life. I had space in my life and I needed to fill it with something, and so going out with friends, drinking on the weekends, things like that were the things that I was going to do and that's what I did. So, looking back on it now, I say that I had a void in my life. If you had asked me then I would have said I'm just living, I'm just living life. I like, I'm just doing what everybody else is doing, but I was struggling. I was really struggling, mental health wise, come august of 2022 I. This is a well-known story. I shared it, but we'll get into the details in this episode. Missionaries walking through the parking lot rolled down my window. I was going to say something mean.

Sam Binns: 22:17

I was.

Tyler K. Gordon: 22:18

I was going to say something mean.

Sam Binns: 22:19

You started with the intent to be rude.

Tyler K. Gordon: 22:22

Yes, but then, and that's how you came back to the church. Yes, All I could say? All I could say was hi, elders, and I just kept driving and I was. I was taken aback because I was like what just happened? Cause I was supposed to say something rude, like some profane thing, and all I said was hey, elders, Okay.

Sam Binns: 22:43

Not even a mention of polygamy. No, you outdid yourself.

Tyler K. Gordon: 22:47

And then I had groceries in the back of my car. It's so funny, I had groceries in the back of my car. I flipped my car around because I was like I can get them to carry up my groceries. I live on the third floor and I hate carrying up my groceries to the third floor. It's like the worst flip around. I say, hey, if you help me carry up my groceries, I'll let you teach me a lesson. They hopped in my car.

Tyler K. Gordon: 23:08

We drove to my parking spot and then I remembered something as we were getting out of my car and I haven't shared this, I don't think, with anyone I remembered I had pulled out my mission journal and put it on my table and like on our drive over to my parking spot they had asked me like were you a member? And my mission journal is like this red journal and it's clearly like missionary for the church journal, and so like I had that just on my counter and I was like how am I going to explain this to them? Because I've already told them I'm not a member, I have nothing to do with the church. And so I quickly came up with this lie about. Oh yeah, I was reading through my grandpa's mission journal just this afternoon, coincidentally and I don't even know why I had my mission journal out in the first place, but that was my quick cover story and they bought it, whatever we'll take it. They carried up my groceries, we went in and we had the first discussion on my couch and I can remember them talking and I remember them sharing the first vision and I felt that I felt the spirit speak to me and I quickly was like no, that was that's just my emotions, right, that's just my nostalgia of I loved this so much growing up. I loved the church, so they taught me the first lesson. It was fine, we love the missionaries, but they left and that was it and I had full, I wasn't going to talk to them again and then I ghosted them for a little bit.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:43

So it was September, so that was late August, early September. One of my friends text me, so there was me, and this really good friend had another really good friend, so three friends and he texts me and he let me know that my friend had taken her life and that was devastating to me. That was really hard. He wasn't able to make it to the funeral, but I was and it was just a really hard thing for me and I just remember driving back and just bawling because that's it In my worldview at the time. That was it. I could have messaged her, I could have talked to her, in fact, after he had messaged me that I was in this moment of shock, and I just messaged her Facebook, knowing that she was never going to see it, and I was just in this moment of shock. Meanwhile, I was still ghosting the missionaries. I think the Saturday after the funeral they ambushed me. There was a knock on my door. Do you mind if I ask about the previous situation.

Sam Binns: 25:45

Yeah, you talked about your worldview, right. You talked about your worldview, right. Was there any inklings of any kind of form of theology to your beliefs at all, any kind of structure to it?

Tyler K. Gordon: 26:01

No, nothing.

Sam Binns: 26:06

So it was just. There's a higher power. That's the end.

Tyler K. Gordon: 26:09

Or were you even agnostic? At that point I would say I was agnostic, leaning atheist, leaning atheist.

Sam Binns: 26:13

So you were on your way to being an atheist.

Tyler K. Gordon: 26:15

Yeah, I think my justification was I'm pretty sure there's not a God, but I can't say that for sure. 99% not a God, but I can't prove that. So that's where I was at. So this was it, this life is it, and so it was really hard and just difficult.

Sam Binns: 26:35

That's a big rock to your world, yeah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 26:37

Yeah for sure, especially having grown up with this individual. We would sit on my friend's trampoline late into the night. We'd call ourselves the losers club. We'd hang out every weekend. We weren't close after middle school, mid-high school. We just all drifted apart as friends do, but it was still devastating to be like this person I knew personally was now just gone.

Sam Binns: 27:04

And I think at that point there's also something to be said for the inherent feeling of someone's just taken their life, and that's. I don't think there's too much in this world that could be more sobering than that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 27:20

Yeah, yeah, it was still. I haven't deleted those text messages from my friend from September just because I was like I said, I was just in shock and it was upsetting, and rightfully so. It was a lot to be dealing with. Not only was I dealing with a lot of emotions, trying to figure out where I was going with my life. I had just graduated college, I was starting a new job, my whole life was changing and I had no control over it, and it just felt like it was just like this train destined for a bridge that wasn't completed yet Right, like I felt like I was going to go off the rails at any moment, and so I was just getting ready for that. And it was scary because I just didn't know where I was going or what was next for me. Then, like I said, missionaries ambushed me.

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:11

I was at home playing Skyrim as I do. I was listening to music and there was a knock on my door and I paused my game and I sat there and I remember having a mental calculation of is my music loud enough that they could hear it outside? And the answer was yes. I was like, oh, it's too loud. They know I'm home, right, there's no way I can pretend like I'm not here. So I took a deep breath and I was like, okay, I'm just going to have to tell them get out, leave, I don't want you here, like I got when I rolled down my window to say that mean thing, I've got to get that same energy. And so I got up and I went to the door and I flung open the door and there weren't two missionaries on my doorstep. There weren't three, there was five missionaries five yeah five.

Tyler K. Gordon: 29:00

Have I not told you this? I thought there was four, no, five, five.

Sam Binns: 29:04

So the spanish-speaking elders yep, and then the trio yeah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 29:09

The trio English speaking elders because they wanted to hand off. So I had these five elders right Like in this apartment hallway, crowded around my door and I just froze. I was like, oh hi, come on in. And I'm trying to remember. I think I actually sat on the floor because my couch wasn't big enough to seat us all.

Tyler K. Gordon: 29:34

It's this great couch right here that we all sat on and anyway, so that couldn't fit six. I can't remember it, not, I'm sure I don't remember. I don't remember For some reason maybe it did fit all of us, but it was really close, we were nice and tight. Anyway, I can't remember. I'll have to text one of the missionaries, but it was fitting because the second lesson was the plan of salvation and they taught this second lesson not too long after I went to this funeral for my friend and it was just another one of those spirit-hitting moments of, hey, this is true. And then I was like stop it, I know I can't do this, I can't do this. And so I sat and I listened to the lesson, the missionaries Again, I told them that I was never a member of the church, so I still playing it up Three heavens, what are you talking about? This crazy talk? You're crazy.

Tyler K. Gordon: 30:33

Meanwhile, like five years previously, I was teaching the same thing and then they left and then I started to ghost them again and this time I was like really ghosting them. I was not answering, I was avoiding them. I think I had them over for one more lesson where they talked about church. They were like hey, you should come to church sometime and I was like uh-huh, sure, yeah, never. And so this went on to the middle of October. And then one Saturday night in October went out with some friends, hit the town, woke up the next morning, I was hungover and I had the thought I should go to church. And it was the craziest in the middle of a yeah, yeah, I was, I had a headache, my head was pounding, my stomach was upset and I had the thought I should go to church. And it's, it is the craziest thought I've ever had in my life. The crazier thing is I went, I went to church.

Tyler K. Gordon: 31:34

I drove over to the church that they told me to go to and it was actually the YSA. I texted them and I said hey, are y'all going to be at church today? They were like we're at another church right now, so we won't be there, but if you want, we can talk afterwards about it. I was like sure, yeah, but if you want, we can talk afterwards about it. And I was like sure, yeah, come over after church and we can talk about it. I only stayed for sacrament, sacrament. And then they were going to have it was. They were going to have Sunday school in the chapel and I was like I'm out, nope, yeah, bye. So I dipped.

Tyler K. Gordon: 32:11

The missionaries came over later that night and we started talking about church and I was like you know what this is really? It was weird and I didn't really like it and I was trying to like let them down easy so that they would stop contacting me. And then I said I just have some questions. Right, I've been reading some things online about the church and I just have some questions. One of the elders was like okay, let's open to Ether, chapter 12, verse 6, right, and we read that earlier.

Sam Binns: 32:37

So you say I have questions immediately. Ether 12, 6.

Tyler K. Gordon: 32:41

Ether 12, 6. And it's that last part that it felt like the Spirit wound up and just punched me in the face as hard as he could which I'm sure he did, because I deserved it. But the last part says wherefore dispute not because ye see, not for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. And then it just hit me Like all of a sudden I was like I need to be back at church and my first thought was I didn't even know if I could get rebaptized. I didn't know if I could become a member again. I just knew I wanted to be numbered with the saints. Even if I could just go sit in sacrament meeting and just be numbered with the saints, that would be good enough for me.

Tyler K. Gordon: 33:27

But in that moment I was like I don't know what to do. I'm freaking out right now. And so I told the missionaries I said cool, you got to leave. And they were like well, we still have a whole lesson that we got. And I was like no, you're leaving now. And I rushed them out, I closed the door behind them and I put my back against the door. I just sunk to the ground and I said I don't know. I was halfway talking to myself, halfway talking to God, and I was like what am I going to do? What do I do? And so the next day I text the missionaries and I said, hey, come over, I'll feed you food. I have a story to tell you. And we got to figure some things out and they were like OK, you're good, bro, like you just forced us out of your apartment. Now you're like I want to feed you food.

Tyler K. Gordon: 34:13

Yeah, so they came over and my plan was we're gonna order. We ordered some doordash, we're gonna eat the food, I'm gonna tell them the story and then, if they hate me for lying to them, uh, then they can leave. But that didn't happen. We ordered the food from doordash. It was taking a long time and they were okay, why don't you just tell us what you got to tell us? So I told them the whole story.

Tyler K. Gordon: 34:35

I was like I was baptized, I remembered, left the church, all this stuff that I've just gone through, and I'm sorry, and if you never want to talk to me again, that's fine, I'll figure this out on my own. And there was just a moment of pause of I'm sure they were trying to get their ground and I was trying to understand what was happening. But we paused for a second and then one of them perked up and said cool, you want to be baptized. And I was like yeah, I do. And he's like, okay, we'll have to figure this out. We don't know how this process works, but met with the bishop, met with the stake president, and they both were like yeah, you can be re-baptized.

Sam Binns: 35:19

So when did you visit the family ward? How did that fit in this process? Yeah, that was.

Tyler K. Gordon: 35:25

I'm trying to think. I have it all on my calendar it was. I think. I went the next week to the family ward, so I think I went one week to the YSA and then two weeks to the family ward and then I was rebaptized the next Saturday. So I think that's the timeline, so, anyway. And then, yeah, they approved me to be rebaptized, and so November 5th re-baptized.

Sam Binns: 35:47

and so november 5th 2022 re-baptized and is there anything special about that process that we wouldn't know?

Tyler K. Gordon: 35:56

so it's not under the direction of the missionaries is right. What I learned right right.

Tyler K. Gordon: 36:02

Originally I was like oh, there's a missionary thing but I remember that now but so I had to meet with the bishop and the stake president and they both had to approve. But they were like, as long as they approved, then everything's good Other than that, no, it's pretty standard. You have to complete all the discussions and you have to be following all the rules and we can save the next story for another podcast. But you would think, oh, rebaptized, everything's good again.

Tyler K. Gordon: 36:34

But it's like life got harder after I was rebaptized. It's this nice little bow on the top of a present that you're like oh, this is a pretty little story and you can, but it's like there's so much more to it, right, like I had to go through this process of getting my blessings restored. This is a pretty little story and you can, but it's like there's so much more to it, right, like I had to go through this process of getting my blessings restored and even after having my blessings restored, I'm still going through. Like life still happens. And in fact, sometimes it's even harder, because when I left the church, I found these coping mechanisms that were not healthy and it makes you want to go back to those coping mechanisms. So it's almost harder to go back to those coping mechanisms. So it's almost harder to be back in the church.

Sam Binns: 37:11

You've got to find new ways of coping.

Tyler K. Gordon: 37:14

Right, I've got to find out how to rely on Jesus Christ. He has to be my coping mechanism. He has to be the one that I go to when I'm struggling. So I've talked a lot and you've talked a little. Any thoughts?

Sam Binns: 37:28

Just as you're sharing your story.

Sam Binns: 37:31

What keeps coming to my mind is just the ever-open arms that those missionaries had, that bishop and that stake president had, that the just general membership of your wards have.

Sam Binns: 37:48

They don't care where you came from, they just want you to be there, and I feel like that's going to speak for the majority of the church. Yes, because that's part of what we're always teaching each other is that's part of the gathering is we want people here, and if they're going to be here, we don't want to push them out. And if there ever is places where they do feel pushed out or anything like that, whoever's doing that is not doing what the church is teaching. It's not meant to be that way. So just this feeling of open arms is just how I see that whole story is. Those arms were never closed and so you always had that option, and so that feeling of I can't do this is, I'd say, just your personal holdbacks, and I think that's, of course, as you do, that's the hardest holdback. But once you get past that, the church is going to make it as easy as possible to come back.

Tyler K. Gordon: 38:56

Yeah, yeah, and that's the other thing is they're not going to lower their standards. You have to follow the standards, you have to be willing to live those standards. But you're right, yeah, the atonement it's truly an infinite atonement, it's truly for everyone, no matter where you've been or what you've done. The atonement will cover you. And again, that's going to be between you and God and we have people on this earth to facilitate that conversation. But ultimately, the atonement is a very personal thing.

Tyler K. Gordon: 39:33

And again I come back to this scripture in Ether, chapter 12. I've received a witness of Jesus being the Christ of God in heaven, of Joseph Smith being a prophet. Because of the trial of my faith, because I've had my faith tried, I know these things to be true and although I may stray from the path from time to time, even still I know that they're there and I know that they love me. And again, like I think about, sometimes I leave and I was texting one of my friends last night and I was like God redeemed me and I throw that away. Like every, almost every day, I'm like, yeah, you know what I'm good, thank you for redeeming me. I'm going to go do this thing that you asked me not to do now Like I'm going to. I'm going to end up sinning in some way and I throw that away. And then I come back to him and I'm like that was maybe not a good idea. And it makes me think about I know.

Tyler K. Gordon: 40:39

In 2 Nephi, isaiah is being quoted and he says my arms are stretched out still. And in that context it's like a negative connotation of I will still smite you If you keep doing bad things. My arms are stretched out still, I still can smite you. But for me personally, I think that there's more than just like the arm of justice in that there's also the arm of mercy.

Sam Binns: 41:05

That's the way modern prophets have sometimes interpreted it.

Tyler K. Gordon: 41:08

And so I think it's important for us to remember that, though we wander, though we've been redeemed, we've been accepted and Christ has atoned for us and we take the sacrament and we're clean, we're still going to fall and we're going to keep on falling, and that's okay. That's the plan. Any closing thoughts?

Sam Binns: 41:28

I just I think that last portion of we keep throwing it away sometimes. I think that can get discouraging for some people, and so it's important to remember that, even though we throw it away, jesus Christ isn't sitting there, like I told you. So that's not his attitude. It never is. It's always an attitude of come back, I'll heal you.

Tyler K. Gordon: 41:55

Yeah, come back, you've got to do the work to come back yeah.

Sam Binns: 41:59

That's implied in come back is you need to walk.

Tyler K. Gordon: 42:02

Yeah.

Sam Binns: 42:03

But come back. I'll heal you every single time.

Tyler K. Gordon: 42:07

Yeah, yeah. And again we just have to keep sacrificing that old self. And then he says cool, welcome back. Nothing happened, and that's the beautiful thing about God's forgiveness is, I don't have to worry about my past. I can repent and be better and do better, and leave it all behind.

Tyler K. Gordon: 42:28

Yep, that's right. That's right. So, anyway, this was a long, this was a long, longer episode than I thought that it was going to be. Let's do an outro and wrap this one up and then I can edit it. All right, everyone, thank you for listening to the from grace to grace podcast. We appreciate you and your support. As a call to action, we would really appreciate it If you could do two things one, follow our socials. That helps us get the word out about the podcast. It helps us to share the message that we're trying to share. And then the second thing is rate us on the podcasting app that you're listening to. Hopefully five stars, but you have your agency, as we talked about last week. So follow us on our socials and then rate us on the podcasting app. And if you have any questions or concerns, feel free to engage with us on the socials and we can talk with you there. So thank you for listening and we will catch you in the next episode.