Tyler K. Gordon: 0:02

I have nothing that I can give God that he needs. Right, he has everything, and so this idea of agency being mine and that I can offer that freely gives me something that I can give to God. That means something that has worth. If I didn't have that, then, even if I had owned mansions and millions of dollars, it's worthless to him it is. I have no uses for it. But ultimately, because I have that agency, because I own that agency and I give it willingly to God, that means something.

Sam Binns: 0:39

Welcome to the From Grace to Grace podcast, the podcast where two distinct paths converge on the road of faith. I'm Sam Bins, a lifelong member of the church. I have a passion for doctrine and church history which will add depth and clarity to our discussions. With me is Tyler Gordon, once a secret outside the fold, now returned with fresh eyes and an open heart. In this podcast, we explore the vast landscape of teachings from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and discuss core doctrines and practical steps to applying these doctrines. Whether you're firm in your convictions or searching for answers, join us as we discuss, debate and discover the divine harmony within the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let's embrace the journey of faith together, learning and growing from grace to grace.

Sam Binns: 1:19

Okay, today is the premortal life. I'm very excited for this episode. First off, we do need to do a little disclaimer. We're talking about doctrine today. The differences between our doctrine and principle episodes is going to be just the focus. Of course they'll bleed over into each other depending on where the discussion goes, but for today it is doctrine, so we'll be talking more about the teachings of the church and the actual ideas and theology, whereas next time with I think that'll be our first principle episode is going to be more application and living the gospel.

Tyler K. Gordon: 1:59

What makes you the most excited about the premortal existence?

Sam Binns: 2:02

Just I think I mentioned this last time is better understanding. The premortal life gives you a greater understanding of what we're doing here, where we're going, who we are. It's all very foundational to our existence.

Tyler K. Gordon: 2:15

I agree. I think it plays into that quote that President Nelson gave young single adults about identity child of God, child of the covenant, disciple of Jesus Christ. Those three principles the main one, the first one child of God comes from that premortal life. We were the other two as well, but that foundational principle of who we are comes from this idea that we existed before this life. We are literal children, spirit children of our Heavenly Father, which I think is unique doctrine and is interesting. I know that Sam's put a lot of work into trying to find some fascinating sources and good foundations to go through. All of the stuff that we're going to be talking about today can all be found in the Gospel Library app. We will have a discussion about good sources eventually, but the Gospel Library app good source.

Sam Binns: 3:05

So we're going to start. We're going to go to John 9, 2 through 3. This is one that Tyler wanted to discuss and we will go ahead and read that, would you?

Tyler K. Gordon: 3:16

Yeah, let me just give some background. This comes from. I was reading a book called Original Grace, which I don't have the author off the top of my head, but it is sold in Deseret Book. It's a fantastic book. I would recommend it myself. They're not sponsoring the podcast, but if they want to, I'm not going to oppose.

Tyler K. Gordon: 3:33

I'm excited about this scripture, in particular because he mentions it in the book. The apostles are talking about this miracle that Christ is going to perform and they're asking about sin. But we'll go ahead and read it and then we can talk about the implications after I'll go ahead and read this verse. So again, John 9, verse 2 and 3, it says and his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind. Jesus answered neither hath this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

Tyler K. Gordon: 4:11

The focus that the individual in Original Grace focuses on is sometimes we suffer for things and it's not because we've sinned, it's because it allows God to show us grace, to show other people grace. We are going through tough things, but the interesting thing that I wanted to talk about with Sam today is, in verse 2, they ask who did sin this man, or his parents, that he was born blind, and it's interesting because in order to be born blind and to have sinned before, that would indicate some life before this right. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that, Sam?

Sam Binns: 4:48

That's exactly what I wanted to pull. There's a study Bible that I read from, and in the footnote for that verse it talks about how most people in antiquity believed that unusual sufferings came as a result of someone's sin. Jewish tradition affirmed that people sometimes suffered because of their ancestors' sins, but at least occasionally also allowed the possibility of a person sinning before birth.

Tyler K. Gordon: 5:20

Interesting. Yeah, I think there are lots of spots in the standard works Like obviously, doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon, talk clearly about the plan of salvation. But even in the Old Testament and New Testament we get these hints of hey, there was something before this.

Sam Binns: 5:35

Yeah, so next up, we're going to go in a timeline fashion, from the beginning though there is none of premortal life and going to about the beginning of the creation. So, for the start, we're going to be talking about intelligences, what those are, and an agency, and, as well, a little bit about our view on creation ex nihilo or out of nothing.

Tyler K. Gordon: 6:01

So, starting off with that idea of intelligences, do you want to just give us a brief overview of what you mean by that, Because obviously people of other faiths are going to. That is going to be like what in the world are you talking about?

Sam Binns: 6:14

In the church we have some discussion in DNC 93 as well as Abraham 3, where it mentions intelligences, and in 93 it's a little bit more equated with spirit and that's where it gets into a gray area of what exactly is an intelligence, and that's something that, to be honest, we won't be able to answer. That's a gray area that we don't have the full information of. But then in Abraham it talks about how let me pull this up right here, just so I don't- quote it wrong While you're pulling this up.

Tyler K. Gordon: 6:50

DNC 93 was received by Revelation by Joseph Smith in 1833, and the book of Abraham was translated rather late in his life, right Like the late 1830s or early 1840s. So this doctrine of intelligences starts to form in the early church starting in 1833, which is near the beginning of the church, and just continues through Joseph Smith's life and throughout the history of the church.

Sam Binns: 7:17

And so that verse in Abraham says now the Lord has shown unto me, abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was.

Tyler K. Gordon: 7:24

I think about intelligences. It's this fascinating doctrine that we're in this mortal state and we have this body and there's this idea of our spirit, which existed before our body and then so like our spirit is to us now, as intelligences were to our spirit, right.

Sam Binns: 7:42

And that's the understanding I have as well.

Tyler K. Gordon: 7:44

Yeah, so there's a part of us, even if it's a small part, that truly is eternal right, like God created our spirit beings, but there is a certain part of us that extends beyond even that.

Sam Binns: 7:57

Exactly there's in DNC 93, this is the perfect point at which to bring this in is verse 29. Dnc 93, verse 29, it says man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth. So there's a small definition for what it is, but that's still pretty vague. Was not created or made, neither indeed can be. Not even God can create what we are inherently. At the very beginning of that section of verses, there with 29, I believe, down to let's see here, down to verse 36, talking about intelligences, we already get a indication from this revelation that God and us are uncreatable, if that's even a word.

Tyler K. Gordon: 8:48

So in this verse, in verse 29, you indicated to this intelligences or the light of truth is a loose general definition. Do you think that is like synonymous with the light of Christ? So?

Sam Binns: 9:00

actually, if you look down to verse 36, the glory of God is intelligence, or in other words light and truth. So you get a couple more little descriptive terms there. So I'm again not sure the extent of my knowledge is these verses on what intelligences are Right.

Tyler K. Gordon: 9:18

Obviously, with intelligences, we're grasping at straws. We believe that everybody has this inherent light of Christ to be able to discern truth from things that are false, and so it would make sense to me this is Tyler doctrine it would make sense to me if this intelligence was synonymous with the light of Christ, because everybody was once an intelligence, and so it would make sense that, because everybody has the light of Christ and everybody was once an intelligence, it would make sense if they were synonymous. But anyway, so that's yeah, that's cool.

Sam Binns: 9:51

Yeah, for me. Actually, I would understand it because I think if the light of Christ is something that everybody just gains by nature of their birth into this world, trying to think of the verse, Would we not have needed the light of Christ before this world, though?

Tyler K. Gordon: 10:04

We would have been able to need to discern between truth and not truth right, and so wouldn't we have needed that light then as well?

Sam Binns: 10:11

There's the verse that talks about the light of Christ that lighteth every man that cometh into the world, and so that verse just leads me to believe that it's something that we gain on birth. But I can see that side of trying to think about okay, we need that in premortal life, and that's part of the topic here with agency as well in the premortal life.

Tyler K. Gordon: 10:30

And I also want to get into this idea of premortal life. We were with God and no unclean thing can dwell with God, right, I guess? My question is did we ever get, did we? How many wrong things did I do in the premortal existence? Does that make sense? Because if I did a wrong thing against God's will, obviously we still had agency, because we had to be able to choose between coming into this earth and not. But I don't know, does that make sense?

Sam Binns: 10:55

And that highlights the John 9, 2 to 3 portion of Can we Sin Before? This Life and I am not sure that's a gray area that I just don't know.

Tyler K. Gordon: 11:06

Fair and it's like a complex area, right Because?

Sam Binns: 11:09

it's like the implications of that are heavy.

Tyler K. Gordon: 11:12

Concerning? Yeah for sure. Anyway, where are we going next? What are we talking about next?

Sam Binns: 11:17

We just discussed a little bit about intelligences, and so the next step goes to what exactly was happening with those intelligences. I've got some of the King Follett sermon pulled up here we're going to be going to I believe it's the May 1971, ensign. That's where on Gospel Library you can find it if you'd like. But I'm just going to be pulling some quotes from there where Joseph goes into a discussion on the immortality of our spirits and just the eternal nature. There's a couple quotes and I'll start reading them and talk about each one as I go.

Sam Binns: 11:56

First one we say that God himself is a self-existing being. Who told you it is correct enough, but how did you get it into your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner, upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it and it became a living soul. That last portion is talking about a little bit of the creation and with Adam, but before that he says that man does exist upon the same principles. So he's saying that we are self-existing just like God We've talked about that just a few minutes ago with our spirits being eternal. There's a portion of us, as Tyler said, that is eternal.

Tyler K. Gordon: 12:35

So Joseph Smith, during this King Follett discourse, starts to explain the nature of exaltation In our understanding of the gospel. It would make sense that if we are to grow from grace to grace and to grow and to become more and more like God, to become exalted, we would have to be like God inherently, because God is the greatest of all the intelligences and the brightest. I mean we get that from the Abrahamic discourse on Colub. It's all symbolic of God being the brightest and the most true. So in order for us to grow, to be even close to that, we would have to have some part of our nature that is like God as well.

Sam Binns: 13:19

Yeah, and what you just said reminds me of the verse 19 and Abraham 3, the very end. I am the Lord, thy God. I am more intelligent than they all.

Tyler K. Gordon: 13:30

I think this is like a good part to interject here. We are not experts in any of this and, to be honest, the person who's closest to being an expert is probably the prophet himself, because he communicates directly with God. We all communicate with God. He speaks for doctrine. That being said, if you have any thoughts or opinions on this or supporting evidence of why you might think something else, feel free to comment. Part of this podcasting experience is learning and growing from these discussions, and there will be things where it's like oh, I said this thing and somebody has better evidence to suggest something else and we want that. We want that information, so feel free to send that. We'll probably do an episode at the end of the season of hey correction, we found out this cool new information and we wanted to share it with you. Anyway, go ahead and continue.

Sam Binns: 14:20

We've got that eternal nature of who we are. Inherently we are the same kind of being as God which, outside of the faith, for example with the Christians they would consider that something way out in left field. They would not be comfortable with that. They have in their mind the idea that it's a tier list of God and then to angels and then down to man, all separate, whereas we have it all on the same plane, saying no, they're all the same kind of being.

Tyler K. Gordon: 14:54

Which to our Christian brothers and sisters. I get it. It also. Sometimes it makes me feel uncomfortable to be like oh, I'm made up of the same stuff as God. Even just saying that, sometimes I'm like, oh, wretched man that I am, I struggle with a lot of things and so even insinuate that I'm made up of the same stuff of God. I get it. It's so uncomfortable for me to even think about knowing my past mistakes and to put me on that same level as joint heirs with Christ, as it talks about in the Bible. I'm like I don't know about that one.

Sam Binns: 15:22

That's a high responsibility.

Tyler K. Gordon: 15:25

Okay, so we have our intelligences. They were made into spirits. Where are we going from there? Next?

Sam Binns: 15:30

is the continuation of that King Follett sermon. We have Joseph saying intelligence is eternal and exists upon itself as an existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. So that's talking about creation next to the Helo, which we will get to in a second. All of the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. And then this next portion explains that the first principles of man are self-existent with God.

Sam Binns: 15:58

God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory because he was more intelligent, sought proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences that they may be exalted with himself so that they might have one glory upon another, and that all knowledge, power, glory and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. So that's a lot, but the main premise is that God is with all of us intelligences before, and he decides I am more intelligent, I have more power, and because of God's nature as an altruistic being, he wants us to be like him.

Tyler K. Gordon: 16:48

I think ultimately I love counterbalancing what I said before. I love this doctrine as well because it gives me purpose and hope that, oh, maybe I can move from that O'Retchard man that I am to like this progression that Nephi goes through in his Psalm. He goes from this O'Retchard man that I am all the way through but I can glory in my God and because of my God I can do all things, which is great. And I love that doctrine because it gives me purpose and the path through eternity, because I can be like God. It stretches through the rest of eternity, which is a really comforting doctrine that I can progress and I can become better and it makes sense that I can grow in that kind of way.

Sam Binns: 17:28

Yeah, and so that's exactly what this quote is talking about too. Is he's saying God's giving you all of the resources that you need and it's just a matter, at that point, of accepting it and moving forward with that and improving through Jesus Christ and his Atonement.

Tyler K. Gordon: 17:44

And God works through patterns. So it makes sense. On this earth, I have mortal parents who raised me, and eventually, one day, I'll become a parent as well. So it makes sense for me to be able to learn and to grow and yeah, I'm going to make mistakes as a young parent as well, just as my parents made mistakes with me and so it makes sense to me that we have this ability to also grow in an eternal sense, because God does work in patterns.

Sam Binns: 18:08

And that highlights the idea of agency free will, where we have such an open view to that. For us, agency and free will is total and absolute. In our theology, we have so much room for our own choices that it's actually something that God does not own. That's, the only thing that we own ourselves is our own agency.

Tyler K. Gordon: 18:33

Which is what makes sacrifice so important, because as we go and take our heart to God and we're like, here's my heart. I love this thing.

Sam Binns: 18:40

That's the point of covenant.

Tyler K. Gordon: 18:41

Yeah, but I love this idea that I go to God, I offer him my heart, and he's like okay, you got to keep it though, because if I take it now, what are you going to give me tomorrow? I have nothing that I can give God that he needs, right, he has everything, and so this idea of agency being mine and that I can offer that freely gives me something that I can give to God. That means something that has worth. If I didn't have that, then even if I had owned mansions and millions of dollars, it's worthless to him. It is. There are uses for it, but ultimately, because I have that agency, because I own that agency and I give it willingly to God, that means something.

Sam Binns: 19:24

That agency is something that we've always had, obviously, with being self-existing. We're always there, we have our choice to progress, and he's given us choices to make in the first place, and then we have the last portion of what we were going to talk about with this point is creation from nothing. With the idea that we always existed, our agency gets a lot more weight because when God hasn't set us up and put us together and knows exactly what we're going to do because of the fact that he made us, it's a lot more weighty and important. I think I've heard somewhere the idea of who, would you say, is the happiest being in the universe, and of course we would probably say, oh, probably God, because of who he is. And so the point is we are trying to be like that as well, and he's sought proper to institute laws, as that quote says, that we can progress to that happiness, to that eternal joy.

Tyler K. Gordon: 20:20

I don't know if this is where you're going with this in Creation X, nehalo, but my 11-year-old brain is. Can we also talk about war and the war in heaven?

Sam Binns: 20:30

I don't know if that's where you're going. That's later on, Okay cool, cool, cool.

Tyler K. Gordon: 20:33

I won't derail us that much.

Sam Binns: 20:35

You go ahead and continue so the last portion of that portion of the King Follett that we're quoting from, I just wanted to read. It says this is good doctrine. It tastes good and he compares it. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I love the fact that he starts comparing this tastes good. I like this.

Tyler K. Gordon: 20:52

Joseph is a wild man, let me tell you. I know you're reading Rough Stone Rolling and I've also read that book. But sometimes he says things and I'm like what? This is not the prophet that I was expecting, but he says things like this is good doctrine, it tastes good. Who says that? Apparently Joseph Smith.

Sam Binns: 21:08

Yeah and I just like it because for me, it's the exact way to explain how this feels to me, because the idea of who we are, when we know that we are the same kind of being as God, we have so much more motivation to progress. If we are just random creations in a cosmos that's spinning out of control, it's depressing, but with the knowledge that God has set this up for the purpose of helping us progress, it's a lot more clear to me.

Tyler K. Gordon: 21:41

Okay, take us into creation. Let's go there.

Sam Binns: 21:44

Yeah, god, then, with these intelligences, forms spirit bodies for them. So thus we call him Father. He's the Father of our spirits. For example, hebrews 12-9, we would interpret this way, says Furthermore, we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us and we gave them reverence. Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live Just? That term, father of spirits, is why we highlight that. So the gray area, of course, is wordings. With what we just read from D&C 93 in Abraham, in Abraham you'll see the wordings for intelligences and spirits intertwined and intermixed. So it can get a little gray. But the main point, of course, is that God is the Father of our spirits. So we've formed our spirit bodies. Whatever that looks like gray area, we don't know.

Tyler K. Gordon: 22:39

Yeah, I think that this doctrine presents a lot of interesting discussions but, yeah, lots of gray areas. I also think that we have this intermixing between not only intelligence and spirit, but also soul, and that, like a living soul, can incorporate your spirit itself, or your spirit and your body, which also would include your intelligence. So there's this mixing pot and there are just some things that we just simply don't know, and that's okay.

Sam Binns: 23:05

Yeah, absolutely that's, I think. A thing that I do want to mention is with this podcast. There was another title that I considered which was Circumstriving Truth or something along that line. But the idea of circumscribing so drawing a line around, circle around is I was hoping to have that as a goal of the podcast too is to see what lines can we draw. What is knowledge that we do have, and then what is gray area where the line? We wouldn't know where to draw the line because we don't have that information. That's the hope with this is to figure out, okay, what can we explain, what's clear, and then tell people, okay, here's what's not clear from at least what we have in Scripture or from modern prophets, and then hopefully later on, as we wait that's the point of general conference is to continue hearing the words of the Lord.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:04

Okay, take us further in the premortal life. Where are we going?

Sam Binns: 24:07

Yeah, so next up is the Council slash War in Heaven. We have those.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:12

So the War Chapters is what you're talking about. We're in the War Chapters of the premortal existence.

Sam Binns: 24:16

A little bit yeah.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:17

I want Scripture. I want Scripture about this war. I want Scripture like the Book of Mormon has about the War Chapters. I want Scripture about this war. So, if anybody, if we can get that I'm asking that from the church if we can figure out where that's located.

Sam Binns: 24:32

I'd be okay without that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:33

You don't want War Chapter Scriptures I think what we have is enough.

Sam Binns: 24:39

It's painful enough that we lost a third of our brothers and sisters.

Tyler K. Gordon: 24:44

Without a doubt. I completely agree. It's probably a pain point, but also just think about how cool that was, Like Michael leading all of us in a charge against those who are fighting against God. I think there's a good balance between mourning those who didn't choose to come to this mortal life, but also think about how cool that was.

Sam Binns: 25:06

I just wonder if it's not just a war in like spirit, a war of words things like that right. What kind of war are we talking about?

Tyler K. Gordon: 25:15

The word is synonymous with Jesus Christ, and so I think you're right. There's probably more to the term war than just I'm going to fight you, and also there isn't this kind of idea of death, because we didn't have a mortal body that could die. So what does that mean? War? It probably was more of an intellectual thing than this physical idea, but I still want to believe that Captain Moroni was waving a flag of liberty to all the spirits, because I like that guy.

Sam Binns: 25:46

So with these verses first off, revelation 12, 7 to 9, we're going to open up in the Bible first to talk about this In those verses in Revelation 12, 7 to 9 says there was a war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels and prevailed not. Neither was there place found any more in heaven, and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world. He was cast out into the earth and his angels cast out with him.

Sam Binns: 26:17

Some of that people could say, okay, we can probably see that a different way. It doesn't have to insinuate a pre-mortal life and that's true. And so when you get to D&C 29, verse 36, you get some clarity on that. It came to pass that Adam being tempted of the devil. For, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying Give me thine honor, which is my power, and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency, so that free will. That's where we get a little bit of a clearer picture of, yes, there was Satan turning people away.

Tyler K. Gordon: 26:53

a third part, as we see it's interesting to see it spread across all of the standard works. Ultimately, with this pre-mortal existence stuff, we find hints of it in all of the standard works, but we know it because of what Joseph taught in this King Follett discourse and in other areas that prophets have taught.

Sam Binns: 27:15

So there's in Abraham 3, why did this war happen? Why is this going on? And we see in Abraham 3 that God sees these intelligences that were organized before the world was. And then, down in verse 23 of Abraham 3, god saw these souls, that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them and he said these I will make my rulers, for he stood among those that were spirits and he saw that they were good and he said unto me, abraham, thou art one of them that was chosen before that was born. And there stood one among them that was like unto God. He said unto those who were with him we will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell.

Sam Binns: 27:56

There's a little hint towards creation, ex-materia, so out of materials rather than out of nothing. But we'll talk about that later on and we will prove them herewith to see if they will do all things whatsoever. The Lord, their God, shall command them Verse 26,. And they who keep their first estate. So the idea of premortal life shall be added upon. And they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate, and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads forever and ever. This is what we would see in the church as the presentation of God's plan of salvation, where he says we're going to make an earth where you can receive a body as well, and we're going to see and prove, test those spirits and those people to see if they will do all things that the Lord commands.

Tyler K. Gordon: 28:50

I think also included in this conversation about the war in heaven. We say war in heaven as though it happened, but I think it's important for us to remember that the war in heaven is still going on. Satan ultimately wants to drag us down and take away our agency. That's why addiction is such a hard thing to deal with in this life, and so I think it's important to remember that we're still enlisted in the army of God. Child of God, disciple of Jesus Christ. I think that descriptor, and I think we can see that in our hymns, like Israel God is calling, or like battle hymn of the Republic, we're all enlisted in this army of God and we're to stand for truth and righteousness. And it makes it really difficult because we don't remember our past life, but I think it's important for us to remember that we're still fighting in a war. It's a war zone out there and spiritually it's difficult. We may seem like the underdogs and we know that we're going to win in the end, but ultimately, like it's tough, it's not easy anyway.

Sam Binns: 29:52

Yeah, and I just want to highlight that last verse that I read 26. First estate, second estate those refer to premortal life and then, respectively, mortal life. The point is he is sharing. Okay, we're going to test these spirits to see if they will subject their wills to us. That's the one thing they have to give, is we're going to see if they're willing to give that up to us. And in a place where they don't know for sure, they have to act by faith. That's part of the purpose of this life is to work without pure knowledge of God standing right there in front of you. Because what kind of test is it if God's just standing right there?

Tyler K. Gordon: 30:33

I've said this to you before, but when I get into discussions about proof of the Book of Mormon or even God's existence, I always say I don't think we'll ever have more than 49% proof of any individual thing, because if we had that 51% proof, then what's the point of faith? As we receive more evidence about the Book of Mormon, which we do every day, we'll also receive more questions and more doubt, and I think, as many people would say, oh, that's a bad thing, we don't want to have questions. I think it's important to recognize that questions are important, because that's the plan is have questions, and Joseph Smith also had questions, and that's why we're sitting doing a podcast today.

Sam Binns: 31:13

Yeah, so we have that council happen where God presents okay, here's the plan. I have a body and you want to have one as well, because without it, as a verse in D&C says, we can't have a fullness of joy. There's gray area beyond that. Why, who knows? But we do know, at least, that without our body and our spirit combined we cannot have a fullness of joy. But then he has, of course, the war. And that happens because and I think Moses 4 is a little more clear than the end of those verses that we were just reading I think Moses 4 gives a little more context and a little more explanation of what happens with how does this war start?

Sam Binns: 31:57

Because if we'll read, it says and I, the Lord, god, speak unto Moses, saying that Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine, only begotten so he just had an encounter with Satan is the same which was from the beginning. And he came before me saying so this is during the council. Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it. Wherefore give me thine honor. So he is offering to be the one to redeem mankind, but in this case he wants to redeem them, but he says one soul shall not be lost. He's removing the option for agency in his. I guess it would be an amendment to God's plan that God understands. Mistakes are going to happen, problems are going to arise. Christ has been plan A from the beginning, but Satan essentially comes up and says I have an amendment that I think makes the plan better.

Tyler K. Gordon: 32:56

How terrifying would that have been. In that moment God's like yeah, I'm going to send you down there and you might not make it back to the same place. You get to choose for yourself where you want to go, inevitably. But how scary is that moment. And then also, I have full faith in Jesus Christ and his Atonement. But in that moment I wonder, if there was this pause of, is this plan going to work? God is all powerful and I know that, but what if it doesn't? Then am I just lost forever? It must have been a scary moment. I would guess this is just my speculation on it, but….

Sam Binns: 33:29

And I think for me, I think that would be a less scary moment, because when God's presenting this plan, there is the understanding that basically everyone sons of perdition are an exception is going to return to a kingdom of glory, to a place that we would consider heaven, and so in D&C it talks about how God saves all the works of his hands, so everybody will receive something good, but I think the fear that would be there is. I want to be with God, I want to be like Him, I want to be living with Him, and for those in the lower degrees of glory it's not possible.

Tyler K. Gordon: 34:11

And I guess that's what I'm saying is if my parents were like, yeah, you're going to go to college and you'll come back one day and if you do well, you can live in my house. But if you don't, I'm going to have a pretty cool house that you can live in. It's just not my house and I don't know. That sounds scary when you have this person who's ultimately lying but is saying I can save everyone, I can do this and I will do this. A third of the hosts of heaven ended up following Satan, and obviously God is all good and all truth, but there must have been something that caused people to be like no, this is the other plan that I'm going to follow. I'm thinking.

Sam Binns: 34:52

The one third that follow him is an amendment to the plan. I don't think Satan had fully fleshed this out because of the fact partly because he's lying here in saying that he can redeem all mankind once, all shall not be lost. The lie that's going on with his amendment is not so much I guess I shouldn't say lie, but it's just more of a flaw to the amendment that he's making. Is I'm gonna remove agency, which God says absolutely not? No, we are not doing that.

Tyler K. Gordon: 35:27

He didn't even say like, absolutely not. He said I'm gonna give everybody agency. And then Satan was like but what about? No, and what? So, yeah, so and as we talked about in the beginning of the episode. Like I Agency is the one thing that I can give God right, like my agency is all that I have to give him, and so Satan taking that away Ultimately means a mortal life would be meaningless right, no test.

Sam Binns: 35:51

Yeah, so anyway, yeah and so Satan comes up with this amendment and then Verse 2 says but behold, my beloved son, which was my beloved and chosen from the beginning, said unto me father, thy will be done and the glory be thine forever. So Christ comes along, says so Abraham 3, 27, and the Lord said whom shall I send? And so that's the question I guess in this council is we have this plan, we need a redeemer and someone to take all of the pain. And so you have one. Answered like unto the Son of man here am I send me. Another, answered and said here am I send me? And the Lord Said I will send the first. So this is why I decided to move to Moses 4, because we get a little more clarity on what's going on. And it says when the beloved son, jesus Christ, comes, he says father, thy will be done and the glory be thine forever. So he's saying send me. And I'm not gonna make amendments to this because it's right.

Tyler K. Gordon: 36:53

It's a perfect plan, okay, cool. So we in Tyler's mind, we have this epic war in heaven and we were all singing, battle him of the Republic and marching to battle. All in my mind and Sam is rolling his eyes. But, that being said, take us where we go, and next, what's the next? Yeah, what happened.

Sam Binns: 37:11

Satan is cast out and Becomes the devil, the father of all lies. This is, if Moses 4 4 to deceive and blind men and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not harken unto my voice, god's voice. So he loses, if that's how we want to put it, and he's a sore loser. He's still trying to take as many people as he can with him.

Tyler K. Gordon: 37:32

He's the worst. We don't like him. I'm gonna make an official statement on this podcast. The from grace to grace podcast does not like Satan. No, that's my official statement. Yeah, but that being said, he, so he's cast out.

Sam Binns: 37:44

Yeah, he's cast out and the plan then is put into action for us to follow gods if you put it, blueprints for Becoming like him, which includes, as a just a little forerunner for future episodes, getting a body and having experience in this mortal body on earth and choosing between good and evil, and Having the full free choice between good and evil, moral agency, free will with actual morals behind it which I think brings us full circle, back to the beginning of this episode, where we were talking about becoming, like God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ.

Tyler K. Gordon: 38:21

That's the plan, and that's the plan that was sent from the beginning. Ultimately, the plan was come down make mistakes, christ will atone and if we choose him, we can be with him forever. And so the plan wasn't come down make no mistakes, live perfectly and then become exalted. The plan was come down we're gonna make mistakes and that's okay. That's part of life and In fact, it's actually a good thing in some ways, so that we can learn and to grow from grace to grace. And I think that's the beautiful part of the plan is to know, yeah, one day I can become like God, I can become perfect, like heavenly father and Jesus Christ, but it doesn't have to happen today. Right, that that can happen in eternity. So I think that's the other important thing to recognize is, like perfection doesn't happen overnight, it happens over eternity and Doesn't have to happen today. And just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't happen and that's perfection in the complete sense of just.

Sam Binns: 39:22

Are we complete? Are we like God? And I think to wrap all of this together is how does this help us? How does this give us the foundation right? We've talked about how we are children of God. We have eternal potential, and the only way any of it works through this plan that was presented, which we just discussed is Is Jesus Christ and his atonement. His grace is the only way that we return to the father as well as are exalted, and that is the central portion of the plan. Is Jesus Christ, his atonement, what he did for us in the Garden of Gethsemane, as well as on the cross and finishing up rising from the tomb.

Tyler K. Gordon: 40:14

All other doctrines are just appendages of the atonement and ultimately he is the center and he is who we need to be focused on. In this podcast we're gonna dive into these doctrines like we have this episode, but ultimately, at the end of the day, the important thing is the grace of Jesus Christ in his atonement.

Sam Binns: 40:32

Yeah, as part of the end of this episode, I think it would be a wonderful thing to invite you all to read that second half of the King Follett sermon from that May 1971 Anzine. Of course the entire sermon is sometimes confusing. There's lots of portions that are not fully clarified and we haven't had too much clarification since, but this portion to me seems very clear. So I'd say, go ahead and read that and to finish up, we thank you for listening today and we're grateful that you are also taking the time to learn and to grow from grace to grace, and we hope you have a fantastic day.

Tyler K. Gordon: 41:13

Bye.